The Tories’ battle over asylum seekers

This is an audio transcript of the Political Fix podcast episode: ‘The Tories’ battle over asylum seekers’

Miranda Green
I can’t really remember the last time somebody that high up in government admitted that a key promise was not being delivered.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Lucy Fisher
Welcome to Political Fix, your essential insider guide to Westminster from the Financial Times with me, Lucy Fisher. You heard there Miranda Green, talking about the pitfalls of being a little too honest in politics. Well, it may be August, but it’s been an eventful week in Westminster. The first asylum seekers finally embarked on the Bibby Stockholm barge, but the government’s plan has not exactly gone off without a hitch. We’ll assess Rishi Sunak’s wins and woes on immigration. Plus we’ll consider caution in politics, and whether Keir Starmer’s circumspection could hand the Tories a win even if they lose the next election. And finally, we’ll look eastwards to Beijing to consider the latest twists and turns in the Anglo-Chinese relationship. To unpick all that, I’m joined by two Political Fix regulars, the FT’s UK chief political commentator Robert Shrimsley. Hi, Robert.

Robert Shrimsley
Hi there, Lucy.

Lucy Fisher
And the FT columnist Miranda Green. Hello, Miranda.

Miranda Green
Hello, Lucy.

Lucy Fisher
Thanks both for joining. [MUSIC PLAYING] So to kick off, as ever, Robert, what’s caught your eye this week?

Robert Shrimsley
Well, I was struck by it being home affairs week essentially for Labour and Yvette Cooper pushing very hard on the issue of why so many crimes go unprosecuted. And she announced that she was setting up a charging commission of former victims’ commissioner Vera Baird to look at this issue. And it’s the kind of thing you do in opposition when you want something to say but don’t actually have anything to say. But what I was struck by was the fact that she was doing this because actually, Labour hasn’t been very vocal on crime, and it’s an area of potential weakness for the Conservatives, and they’re led by a former director of public prosecutions. So they have some bona fides on this, and particularly issues of, you know, terrible prosecution figures for rape, the number of burglaries that don’t get properly investigated, things that really matter to people. It just struck me that yes, they’re saying something, and I found myself wondering if they’re gonna push really hard on this now for a while, because it seems to me a potential weak spot for the Conservatives where Labour haven’t pushed as hard as they could have done.

Lucy Fisher
Well, let’s come back to Labour shortly. Miranda, what’s caught your eye this week?

Miranda Green
Well, I think it has to be the catastrophic data breach — well, data publication — accidental, by the Police Service of Northern Ireland, in which 10,000 names were published on the website completely by human error, they say. And obviously in Northern Ireland, that’s incredibly serious. So it’s officers and civilian staff of the police service. And obviously over three decades of the Troubles, you know, they’re used to being very careful with identities because of the threat from paramilitary groups and of course also from the organised criminals who are, you know, closely allied to the parliamentary groups. And the staff are terrified, representatives of the rank and file are absolutely furious, and it’s really quite potentially catastrophic in terms of the consequences.

Robert Shrimsley
And of course, this followed on from the Electoral Commission hack as well, didn’t it?

Miranda Green
Absolutely. (Overlapping talk) Which was a cyber attack. So slightly different circumstances. And they only fessed up to it this week, right? And that came to light last October.

Robert Shrimsley
What about you, Lucy?

Lucy Fisher
Well, for me, my moment of the week has been the Conservatives launching an investigation into their London operation. Now, they claim this is all about trying to make sure everything is tickety-boo for the mayoral campaign next spring. But I think really, we’re all aware that Greg Hands is asking the same question as many members of the public. Why was it such a poor, narrow field of candidates? And why, you know, of those that were able to be selected, wasn’t Paul Scully, the minister for London, who has quite a high degree of visibility in the shortlist? So I think there is more to be said on why it doesn’t attract more talent.

Miranda Green
Definitely. I mean, I think for Londoners it’s really disappointing. I mean, to be mayor of London is surely one of the best political jobs in the . . . on the globe.

Robert Shrimsley
Particularly after they changed the voting system for this election, which should have made it easier for the Conservatives. It’s still a difficult call, but they should have given them more of a shot.

Lucy Fisher
Yes. Well, let’s see. Let’s see what they come up with. [MUSIC PLAYING] So let’s move on to talk about immigration, which has been the theme this week. We saw a small group of asylum seekers escorted up the gangplank of their new accommodation in Dorset: the three-storey high Bibby Stockholm, which is moored in Portland Harbour. A second group refused to board the barge. We then had Tory deputy chair Lee Anderson tell those who didn’t like the idea of living on the vessel they could “f*** off back to France” before declaring that the government had failed on controlling migration.

Lee Anderson
I’m not gonna sit here and make excuses to anyone. This is out of control. We know we’re in power at the moment. And I’m a deputy chair of the Conservative party. We’re in government and we have failed on this. There’s no doubt about it. You know, we’re simply gonna fix it. It is a failure.

Lucy Fisher
Well, as if to underscore the point on Thursday, the number of people who’ve crossed the channel in small boats since 2018 topped 100,000. So Miranda, Downing Street, as far as they can control these things, had gridded this week as small-boats week. How do you think it’s gone for them?

Miranda Green
Oh, not great, Lucy. I mean, you know, we have been saying for a while, haven’t we, that the problem with setting yourself five key objectives that you want to achieve before you call the election is that you bloom well better prove that you’re meeting those objectives and one of them is stopping the boats, and he can’t. And so the problem is that every day they start off with whatever’s on the Downing Street grid in terms of their sort of action plan to crack down on the migrations across the Channel. And by the end of the day, it’s all gone to hell. And it’s just more and more evidence of the fact they’ve lost a grip on the situation.

And, you know, you’ve then got Lee Anderson admitting that the government has let the situation get away from them, which is actually astonishing. I can’t really remember the last time somebody that high up in government admitted that a key promise was not being delivered and sort of implicitly kind of apologising in his tone there. So I think it is really interesting and they’ve got a horrific problem on this. They’ve got the local MPs in the areas where they want to house the refugees and asylum seekers up in arms. You know, you’re creating opportunities for different groups to kind of bus in protesters, so the whole thing becomes a real local issue. You know, they’ve really set themselves up for a failure on several counts, I think, on this.

Lucy Fisher
Robert, let’s pause for a moment on Lee Anderson, should we? He’s such a Marmite figure. And of course, what he said was not exactly the party line. Robert Jenrick — the immigration minister — had to leap in to sort of try and reset the narrative that, no, actually the government is doing a lot. We’ve had the announcement this week of a new DG of, director-general of immigration enforcement at the Home Office, which is Sajid Javid’s brother, Bas Javid. Lee Anderson, is he an asset to the Tories on the comms front or is he a liability?

Robert Shrimsley
That’s a really good question. I think the answer is probably a bit of both. There is a value in politics in sort of blinding honesty when the truth is obvious to everybody. So there is a case for doing that. But then you have to sort of spin into it and say it has been a failure, but this is now what we’re doing. And didn’t feel like that message came across. I mean, there has been some limited success in terms of easing the flow, although some of that just comes down to weather in the Channel. But, you know, the numbers are a bit down. They have had some successes on Albanian refugees. So, you know, there is a story that you can tell and it’s not good enough, but it’s something. So I think just saying we failed is it is no use at all. I mean, Lee Anderson’s role is to speak to those people the Conservative party feels he speaks to and they exist, and that they’ll listen to him. And meanwhile, they can carry on doing the governing in their own way. But it’s a pretty difficult line to tread. And I don’t think this week has been the best example of how to do it.

Lucy Fisher
Yeah. Miranda, what do you think?

Miranda Green
Well, I think also there is a huge problem if you then set up your own kind of extreme voice. So letting him, as, you know, as you’ve pointed out Lucy, he’s not gone rogue. This is actually what he was appointed to do, to speak in this way. But you then get Diane Abbott from the left of the Labour party responding in like manner from the other sort of political extreme. And, you know, it forces the Conservative party back into that sort of territory, which is gonna put off a lot of other more centrist voters in other parts of the country that Lee Anderson’s not speaking to when he says, you know, because he’s I mean, he’s got this nickname, hasn’t he, the red wall Rottweiler, but which a role which he seems to be embracing with gusto, one has to say. And the risk of that is that, you know, it’s then a push factor away from the Tories in zones where they shouldn’t be looking extreme.

Robert Shrimsley
But don’t you think actually winding up the left is a key part of his mission, because if he gets the kind of equal response from the left, that’s what the Tories are looking for, in a way. They want people to say it’s all a disgrace because sort of what he’s saying is designed to appeal to a target audience. As Robert Jenrick put it, you wouldn’t necessarily use his language on it. If people don’t like the Bibby Stockholm they can go back to France. But that’s a view that will be held by quite a lot of people who they are appealing to. So actually he’s trolling the left, but he might be trolling them quite successfully.

Miranda Green
Yeah, but you could only get away with that surely, if you’ve actually got a grip over the situation.

Robert Shrimsley
Well, that is the flaw in the plan.

Miranda Green
You have to demonstrate you have it.

Lucy Fisher
I was struck by the double act of Alex Chalk, the justice secretary, being deployed on the same morning after Lee Anderson used that coarse f- off language, making a very similar point in much more urbane, genteel language. He’s very deliberative. And after that, I sort of spoke to someone in government who said they thought it was a beautiful double act that you had, you know, people like him speaking, Miranda, exactly to that quarter of the country that is really turned off by swearing and that kind of aggression that we heard from Lee Anderson. And I think it’s gone down quite well. I mean if they can use Lee Anderson and twin him with someone who’s a bit more deliberative, then that’s a successful Con strategy.

Miranda Green
Well, I’ll tell you what, I do think that there has been a lot of Panglossian self-soothing on the left over immigration, I must say. You know, there’s been a lot of chat since Brexit that, oh, it’s fallen off the list of salient issues and people really don’t mind about immigration so much. And we now see that was complete nonsense because it’s right up there with the issues about which people are so concerned. And I think you’re quite right. The sort of implication of your question, Lucy, I think, is that other sorts of Tories also care about stopping the boats, not the Rottweiler types, and that is true. And actually lots of Britain is concerned about the sort of immigration, not least because of the human cost of the people who are trying to cross the Channel and cross the Mediterranean and endlessly losing their lives. So, you know, it’s not an issue without substance in terms of getting the public onside. But again, I come back to this point, unless your plan is actually working, what is it that you’re selling?

Robert Shrimsley
It is like one of those really grim Hollywood buddy movies, isn’t it? It’s like Chalk and Cheese. You know that in the end, they’ll fall in love with each other and go off to bars together. (Lucy/Miranda laughs) There’s something very odd about it. But I do think, I mean, when I heard Lee Anderson, I just thought if you take away the crudity and just stick to the argument, people are coming to the country legally, you’re putting them up in a hostel of some kind or a floating barge, whatever it is. And you’re saying this is what we’re gonna do with you. And if you don’t like it, well, don’t come. As a basic message, I think that has a resonance with an awful lot of people. I don’t think Alex Chalk will probably find that particular message hard to sell even in his urbane and moderate manner.

Lucy Fisher
And so let’s look at where the Conservatives are hoping to make headway. I mean, absolutely right, both of you, that, you know, there’s so much of the government’s plan that isn’t working. And we’ve heard that familiar Conservative ritornelle, withdrawing or at least derogating from parts of the European Convention on Human Rights this week. And I’ve seen listicles going through the many times since Cameron’s administration that we’ve had this idea. Robert, how seriously should we take this?

Robert Shrimsley
Not too seriously yet. I think that if Rishi Sunak were comfortable with this, he would have put it on the agenda already and he wouldn’t have appointed someone like Alex Chalk who clearly would have opposed it as justice secretary. So I don’t think it’s an immediate issue but I do think, you know, the drumbeat that you hear, when these drumbeats stay in the Conservative party, they eventually come to pass and I could easily see it becoming a theme in opposition or even conceivably from manifesto, although I don’t think for the manifesto. I just think this is one of these itches the Conservative party feels like scratching and it’s not going to stop for a while.

Miranda Green
I mean, that’s not wrong but on the other hand, isn’t there a serious danger of creating a bat with which Farage and his ilk can then beat you from the right? I mean if you raise the topic of repealing the human rights convention when you don’t actually intend to do so and you don’t want to and I don’t think Downing Street has an appetite for that, you’re just creating an election issue for someone else to attack you, aren’t you? And that threat from the right.

Robert Shrimsley
The ECHR is not one of those and even as it’s completing Brexit, I just don’t see the ECHR having major credence and being a major issue in an election. But I can see it being something, they start to (overlapping talk) it around.

Miranda Green
Some of the tabloids are kind of obsessed with it, I would say.

Lucy Fisher
Robert, should more be done to try and engage with the global problem here. We know that in the decades ahead, we’re going to see more people try and move from the poor, resource-scarce, overheating, conflict-ridden parts of the global south to the richer and more stable north. Or is that just pie in the sky?

Robert Shrimsley
Well, I mean, this is the fundamental big-picture fact that global migration is an issue that’s not going away. It’s only going to increase as a problem for wealthy nations. And so there are two ways you can approach that as a country. You can either say, we all need to get together and have a plan for how we’re going to do this. Or you can just play beggar my neighbour and just make sure they go somewhere else.

Lucy Fisher
Miranda?

Miranda Green
But of course, actually if you look at the global picture most refugees are actually in the neighbouring countries of those conflict zones, etc. So we don’t, you know, in proportional terms have such a problem. It’s just become a huge political issue and the visuals of people crossing in small boats and a lot of them dying are horrific and, you know, rightly concern people. I think there is a good case for trying to do more internationally because, you know, it’s become more and more pressing as the climate (inaudible).

Robert Shrimsley
One of our colleagues, a catastrophist of a kind, is actually the view that we will end up militarising the Mediterranean. Then it will simply become an area where the navies of the wealthy countries spend all their time attempting to keep out immigrants.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Lucy Fisher
Well on that note of international politics, let’s pause there and turn our gaze eastwards to China. We’re joined in the studio now by James Kynge, the FT’s global China editor. So, James, the story that caught my eye this week was around Sherard Cowper-Coles, high-profile former British ambassador and now the head of HSBC’s public affairs, lambasting the UK government as weak for giving in to US pressure to scale back dealings with China. First up, can you just tell us a bit more of what happened here and context around this story?

James Kynge
Well, the first thing was that, according to Sherard Cowper-Coles, these comments were made at a closed-door meeting under Chatham House rules, which of course means that nobody’s allowed to report on what was said, but then were subsequently reported by Bloomberg. And he also said that his comments were personal and they didn’t reflect the views of HSBC. And then he apologised. It wasn’t quite clear what he was apologising for, but he did apologise. (Lucy laughs) So it really has become a very important and I think very revealing moment actually because so many companies, not just in the UK but in the west as well, straddle this very uncomfortable divide of trying to do business in China and deriving lots of their profits and revenues from China but at the same time, being based in the west, which as we know, and particularly in the case of the US, is moving away from China at very rapid pace. So these companies, the biggest multinationals in the world, and of course HSBC is one of them, find themselves really torn between the politics of their home base and in the case of HSBC, the biggest market they have in the world by far.

Lucy Fisher
So it’s not easy for the companies. But on the substance of Cowper-Coles’s central point, is he right? Is the UK government acting as a poodle to America and being weak when it comes to China?

James Kynge
I personally think that this should not be described as weak or strong. I think if we look at the objective situation, the US is the UK’s strategic ally, its historical ally. The UK depends on Nato, which of course is led by the US for its security. And China, by comparison, is a country with which the UK has very fractious relations, very different set of values on human rights and several other issues, not least the national security law in Hong Kong. They have a very troubled colonial history together. So there really isn’t any comparison, I would say, between where the UK should stand on its political orientation. The difficulty is, as I said before, is that when companies like HSBC rely, you know, hugely on China and Hong Kong for their profits, they really don’t appreciate it when the UK government gets critical of China, because that rebounds badly on them in China and on their reputation in China and they think on their profits and ongoing business over there.

Lucy Fisher
Give us your take on the UK government’s approach to China and how does that compare with other allies of ours, for example, across the EU?

James Kynge
I think, you know, the UK has really muddled along on China for a very long time. It doesn’t actually to this day have an official China policy. It doesn’t have a China strategy. If you look at what’s happening in Germany, they, of course, have a thorough 94-page document in which they’ve set out, you know, sector by sector, technology by technology, strategy by strategy, what their policy on China is. So I think, you know, the UK is catching up in terms of getting to grips with what its policy on China should be. But it really has been behind the curveball. I would just mention one last thing here. I think what’s really happening is that US pressure on the UK to get tougher on China is moving the needle in the UK. So I think what’s happening is that the UK is slowly being dragged towards what the US calls a small-yard, high-fence policy towards China and what this means is that in sensitive areas of technology, the government will try to restrict investment going into China and coming out of China, but those restrictions will pertain only to those small, you know, sensitive areas. In other words, a small yard of companies and technologies, but a high fence. So the protection of those will be very strong.

Lucy Fisher
What’s timely, of course, this week when the US has announced that it’s restricting outbound investment into Chinese tech firms in areas such as AI and quantum computing. And we know that Rishi Sunak is now trying to weigh up where the UK should land on this. Do you have any thoughts on the direction that the UK is likely to go or where it should go?

James Kynge
I think that probably the UK will follow the US. Rishi Sunak has said he needs to consult with business and with other stakeholders. But given that this really is the fully formulated American policy towards China, I mean this is the big one that we’ve all been waiting for. This is small yard, high fence made into, you know, legislative documents. So this is what they really mean. And therefore, I think that they are not going to allow much backsliding from the UK.

Robert Shrimsley
I think one thing I’ve been interested in your view, James, is that it seems to me, for the reasons you’ve set out, the UK has no choice but to follow the US lead. But obviously, whereas the US can’t be ignored by China, the UK can be brushed aside. It’s not even in the European Union anymore, so it finds itself in a very exposed position, I would have thought, particularly since on its diplomatic side Pacific tilt has been all about being an ally in standing up to China.

James Kynge
Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. Some Chinese officials I spoke to recently actually laughed when I mentioned the UK’s strategic positioning towards the Pacific. Getting involved in the Aukus, which is the Australian, US and UK kind of strategic pact in that area. And they said, so what are you gonna do, send one of those leaking aircraft carriers down there? (Robert laughs) Or maybe you don’t have any left. And I think people should really realise this. You know, after the UK left the EU, the rating that the UK gets in China’s worldview has dropped dramatically. It’s not to say that China doesn’t care about the UK, it does. There’s been 15 delegations from local governments in China to the UK already this year trying to drum up investment and trade and the UK is important to China inasmuch — this is from China’s view — inasmuch as it can be split from the US. That really is as far as China is concerned, that really is the main use that the UK has these days. But yeah, it’s a far cry from how the Chinese used to view the UK let’s say 20 years ago.

Miranda Green
I wonder, James, what your view is of the nervousness in London about Chinese influence and involvement with British universities, because that’s been part of the kind of China-hawk mentality on the Tory backbenches and some of those people are now back in government as well. How much do you think that’s a real fear and how much do you think, you talk about, you know, China’s somewhat dismissive of Britain in the world, but there is a lot of involvement in British universities.

James Kynge
Absolutely. You’re very right to point that out. I mean, the other area that Chinese people and the Chinese government really value the UK is in academic excellence, the excellence of the universities. And there are, I think, about 150,000 Chinese students studying in the UK at the moment. And yet, there the problem is that these students to some degree are directed by what’s called Chinese student associations. Now these are Chinese-run associations, so they actually receive their direction from what’s called the United Front, which is a part of the Communist party. And they direct the students, Chinese students at UK universities, I should say, not all of them, but those Chinese students who join these associations, they direct them in terms of their political thinking and in terms of what they should be thinking and doing about certain topics that come up. And that is a very, very incendiary issue for many UK politicians and others. It hasn’t come to a head yet, but I feel it’s given the nature of, you know, the big climate, as it were, of UK-China strategic competition just going into overdrive. I feel it’s only a matter of time before that becomes much more sensitive.

Miranda Green
James Kynge, FT’s global China editor, thanks for joining us.

James Kynge
Thank you very much.

Lucy Fisher
Now for a word about caution in politics. Well, Robert, you wrote a brilliant column this week on the way in which Keir Starmer is so desperate to avoid giving the Conservatives any opportunity to attack him that carefulness itself is becoming a way in which he can be targeted, which is my far more inelegant summing up of your writing. But talk us through your idea here.

Robert Shrimsley
Well, I just think, I mean, he’s not wrong. The fear stalks the Labour party. All they think about a lot of the time is all the elections they’re supposed to have won and didn’t. And so they’re constantly terrified of the Tories, terrified of every potential Tory trap, even if it looks like it’s not very good. And that caution is an opportunity for the Conservative party in two ways. Firstly, because they can just say he’s a flip-flopper, you don’t know what he stands for. And secondly, because they can bully him on to their territory so that even if they lose the election, they can still sort of set the agenda to a large extent. And, you know, a third problem, by the way, is if he decides, well, actually, I’m just gonna say what I like until I win and then I’m going to change my mind and do what I want to do in the first place. Well, the voters might have a problem with that. So although I think the caution is wise and understandable, I think Labour need to be clever about this because they risk sort of fencing themselves in.

Lucy Fisher
Miranda, it does feel to me like this Tory attack line on Keir Starmer, the U-turner, the flip-flopper, is gaining purchase and I, some Tories I’ve spoken to said they’re trying to change that narrative slightly into making this a question of trustworthiness. He’s a bit of a shifty character. He can’t be trusted to stick with any promise he’s made. He can’t be trusted to really follow through with his own values. He just is a wisp in the wind.

Miranda Green
Yeah, I think they’ve been led by some of that on focus group findings, haven’t they, where it comes up. I mean, tends to come up as a minority point of view, but it does come up so that gives them something to build on. And it’s absolutely true because in order to get elected leader of the Labour party, he had to promise a whole bunch of stuff in terms of the direction he was gonna take the party, ie consistent with the Corbyn era, which he has ditched really determinedly ever since. I think the more interesting point actually about Robert’s column was this idea that they think what they’re demonstrating is kind of calm determination and the idea that they will not be diverted from the course that they have set, which is one of demonstrating such fiscal responsibility and lack of spending pledges that nobody could worry about Labour trashing the economy. But actually, it’s all in the eye of the beholder. And quite a lot of those eyes actually see a kind of paralysis and a bit of a policy vacuum as well. And that I think is really dangerous for them.

Robert Shrimsley
And especially if your whole argument is broken Britain.

Miranda Green
Mm-hmm.

Robert Shrimsley
Well, then the question is, well, how are you gonna fix it? Because we’re not, because we haven’t got any money. So I, you know, I don’t think he’s wrong. I don’t think he’s making major strategic blunders. But I think it’s a vulnerability that they need to be alive to.

Lucy Fisher
Miranda, what about the Lib Dems? Are they thinking big enough? Do they have big retail policies? What is the vision?

Miranda Green
I think the Lib Dems are being very cautious as well. It’s obviously a slightly different question to that of what the Labour party should be saying because the Lib Dems are in the business at this election of trying to bump up their numbers in terms of parliamentary representation. They are not looking for some sort of ambitious agenda of here are great ideas to renew the nation. Please have us in a coalition government. In fact, that’s probably their worst nightmare after the last experience. So I think that they will continue to actually have a lot of kind of domestic policy areas which have an overlap with the broken Britain agenda. And they also are pretty light on ideas as to, you know, what the vision might be for, you know, the Britain we’d all like to see as unbroken and harmoniously living together in more prosperous times. You know, they could be level-pegging with the SNP again, because let’s not forget they were once the third party in parliament. The SNP overtook them a number of years ago. Then that would be a big result for them. And you know, the vision thing is sadly totally absent in that Lib Dem department as well, I think.

Robert Shrimsley
Do you not think there’s a case for them being braver on the EU?

Miranda Green
This is a very interesting point and I have looked into this in some detail and in fact all those by-election wins that the Lib Dems have made over the last couple of years, between 30 and 40 per cent of the voters they needed to get over the line were leavers and they feel it’s just too dangerous to try a braver pro-EU message. Very badly hurt in the 2019 election by promising to revoke Brexit because even though you might pick up a lot more pro-European voters where you don’t need them in those sorts of yellow-blue fights that they’ve been successful in, in these by-elections so dramatically, you’re not gonna gain those seats if you antagonise leave voters.

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Lucy Fisher
We’ve just got time for the Political Fix stock tips. Robert, who are you buying or selling this week?

Robert Shrimsley
OK, I’m gonna be a bit off-beam this week. I’m going to pick Nadine Dorries as a sell, which I know is odd because she’s virtually a penny stock in political terms anyway. But I’ve been very struck in recent days by just how badly she’s misplayed the issue of this by-election she’s promised to cause by resigning as a member of parliament from Mid Beds. And the reason I pick her in this way is that I think she’s got to the point now where this by-election she’s provoking partly to cause problems for Rishi Sunak will end up backfiring on her because the Tories will use her as the scapegoat if they lose. They will say we lost because we had an MP who took the constituency for granted, who was never there, and she’s the reason we lost so she will end up being blamed for this rather than Rishi Sunak or anybody else.

Lucy Fisher
Miranda?

Miranda Green
Well, I’m saying sell Steve Barclay, the health secretary, because the figures out this week on the waiting lists are so incredibly bad. 7.6mn of us in June waiting for routine hospital treatment or operations. Obviously, the government’s trying to blame the strikes by NHS workers from the doctors on down. But as the picture gets worse and worse, it’s pretty difficult that you’re presiding over such a mess. I mean, the A&E target, which is you’re supposed to be seen, treated, moved on, diagnosed within four hours was last met in 2015. You know, I mean this is really not great. So, sell Barclay.

Lucy Fisher
And for me I’d say buy Grant Shapps. He’s of course the great survivor since the Cameron era. And he’s got this big energy security summit that the UK is going to be hosting in spring. So I think we’re gonna be hearing a lot more about him and from him as he positions himself as a big leader on the subject. So, yeah, buy Shapps.

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Well, thanks, Miranda and Robert, for joining. That’s it for this episode of the FT’s Political Fix. If you like the podcast, do subscribe. You can find us through all the usual channels to receive episodes as soon as they’re released. We also appreciate positive reviews and ratings. It really helps spread the word. If you’re interested in further reading about subjects we’ve talked about in today’s podcast, we’ve put links to FT articles that are free to read in the show notes. Plus, you’ll find a link there to a 90-day free offer for the FT’s award-winning Inside Politics newsletter written by Political Fix regular Stephen Bush, apart from this week when he’s on holiday. Political Fix was presented by me, Lucy Fisher, and produced by Philippa Goodrich and Lulu Smyth. Manuela Saragosa is the executive producer. The sound engineer was Simon Panayi and the original music was by Breen Turner. Cheryl Brumley is the FT’s global head of audio. We’ll meet again here, same time, same place next week.

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