Transcript: Fixing women’s financial future

This is an audio transcript of the Money Clinic podcast episode: ‘Fixing women’s financial future’

Claer Barrett
Hello, it’s Claer. We’ve tackled the topic of childcare before in Money Clinic. And while it’s an issue that affects families, society and the economy, I wanted to take a deeper dive into this for International Women’s Day. Questions I’m often asked include: “What’s the true cost of childcare?” and “How does it affect a woman’s lifetime earnings potential?” Also, how can we close those troublesome gender pay and gender pensions gaps? Well, coming hot on the heels of a Budget announcement that promised to boost the UK’s childcare offer for working families, I gathered three of the most outspoken and inspirational experts I know to chew the fat about childcare and flexible working. You’re going to hear the edited highlights of an online webinar I chaired for the FT’s Financial Literacy and Inclusion Campaign, FT FLIC. Enjoy.

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Hello and welcome wherever you’re celebrating International Women’s Day. We’re glad that you chose to have lunch with the FT and learn about the true cost of childcare. I’m Claer Barrett and today I’m joined in the FT’s London studio by three incredible campaigners. Starting with Joeli Brearley, who founded the charity Pregnant Then Screwed in 2015 after her own experiences of pregnancy discrimination; Anna Whitehouse, the writer and broadcaster, better known online as Mother Pukka, who started the hashtag #FlexAppeal movement, campaigning for flexible working for all. And Maike Currie, the former Investors Chronicle journalist who started the Financially Fearless campaign at Hargreaves Lansdown to get more women investing.

We’re going to hear from them about why better childcare and more flexible workplaces matter, not just for women and families, but for everyone, and how the changes that they’ve been campaigning for will help to close the gender pay and pension gaps. So thank you to everyone who pre-submitted questions for me to put to the panel. We’ll get through as many of these as possible, but please be aware: our answers are not intended as financial advice or an investment recommendation. You need to do your own research for that. So the UK Budget. Joeli, let’s start with you. What was in it for women?

Joeli Brearley
There were a couple of things. I mean, nothing groundbreaking. But the first thing was child benefit, which we know has now increased from £50,000 threshold to £60,000 threshold. So if you’re earning £60,000, you can access the full entitlement of child benefit. And then it tapers up to 80,000.

Claer Barrett
That’s right. And that’s from April. So that’s quite a quick change. 

Joeli Brearley
Yeah. Yeah, which is great. And we’ve had this . . . we’ve had it at £50,000 for years and years now. So it’s about time it increased. What we really need to see is that based on household income rather than individual income, because it disproportionately impacts single parents if it’s based on individual income and we potentially won’t see that till 2026. But at least there is a commitment now to look at it. The second thing we saw is that fees . . . so the government pays hourly rates to childcare providers for the funded hour schemes. And historically, what was happening was when there were increases to national living wage and inflation, those fees weren’t increasing. And of course, that left childcare providers in a complete mess because they suddenly had to find a load of money. What the government guaranteed in the Budget was that they would index that funding to national living wage and to inflation. So that gives providers some stability and ability to be able to plan, which is good for parents and good for children.

Claer Barrett
It certainly is. But some analysis by the women’s Budget group that’s been done this week about those tax cuts in the Budget has found out that actually women will benefit less from what’s happening. They think the average single woman would gain just £279 from the latest tax cuts, against £346 for a single man, but the average lone mother would gain just £85, according to their calculations. And that’s largely because this group often struggle to access work and can get trapped in low-paid jobs.

Now, that has been reflected in questions we’ve had in from the audience saying, what about childcare for low-paid women, these reforms for child benefit, they’re very welcome, but they are going to affect families that are bringing home quite a lot of bacon. What about people who do night shifts, early-morning hours, were mainly from disadvantaged communities where working . . . where mothers working is a necessity for family survival, says one person. In a similar one, the UK has one of the most expensive childcare systems in the world. How can a woman on the minimum wage afford to pay these costs? Joeli, a bit of reaction from you to that.

Joeli Brearley
I mean, the simple answer is that they can’t. The tax system does not work for families on low income and the way that the benefits scheme works, it skews towards middle-income families, up until a rate of £100,000. If you’re on a low income, the percentage of your income that you spend on childcare is, you know, up to 80 per cent of your income for some families. So of course, the majority of low-income families don’t actually use our child care system because they can’t afford to. They tend to rely on family and friends. That can trap them in a cycle of poverty. Because if you don’t have childcare, it means that you’re not able to work or you have to work fewer hours and so you’re not able to bring in more income. So we think the whole system needs scrapping, and you need to start from the beginning. We need one simple system that makes sense to everybody and that really does benefit low-income families, who ultimately will benefit the most from an affordable, high-quality childcare system.

Claer Barrett
And I mean, Maike, I’ll bring you in here, there is a big element within this socio-economic issue with childcare, with race. Let’s talk a little bit about the ethnicity wealth gap, some people are calling it. Because this is affecting women in all kinds of different ways, childcare being just one.

Maike Currie
Absolutely. And what we do know, the long-term price that women pay because of the debilitating cost of childcare and because childcare is so unaffordable, is the motherhood penalty. The fact that having children is the biggest financial blow that women will suffer in their lifetimes, to their chances of a promotion, to their chances on a pay rise and, crucially, to their pension. Now, the research shows that the motherhood penalty is amplified for black women and women of minorities because we know there is an ethnicity wealth gap, much like the gender pay gap, and it makes it really difficult for those women to get back into the workforce after having a baby to increase their working hours.

And the price is most crucially paid when it comes to our pensions. By the time women retire, they have more than £100,000 less in their pension pots than men, and it’s impossible to close that gap. And that’s why today single women are the highest percentage of the population who are pensioners in poverty. That is the long-term price women pay for doing the right thing by their children, by their families, by taking a career break, because childcare is not affordable, but they end up with a lot less in their pensions.

Claer Barrett
Because we don’t value care. Women are four times more likely to retire early, for example, to look after a family member. Now that could be their elderly parents or parents-in-law, it could be grandchildren, but it’s the women all the time . . . 

Joeli Brearley
Hasn’t there been a . . . 

Claer Barrett
. . . for filling the gap.

Joeli Brearley
Hasn’t there been a summary of what women would earn every year for parenting, you know, the nannying and the ferrying and the form-filling and the administration around it all. And I think it’s, you know, it’s bigger than banker jobs if you actually put it all up.

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Claer Barrett
Now, I’ve selected this question from an audience member. The costs and the challenges of childcare are one that many women and couples are facing. But how can we create a more optimistic future for the next generation? So panel, who would like to go first in giving me some optimism? (Laughter)

Joeli Brearley
The really . . . The good thing that we’ve seen since 2020 is more people working remotely. And we know that remote working has huge benefits, particularly from the business-wise research to support that now. We’re now seeing a rollback in remote working from the likes of Alan Sugar and James Dyson, who seem to be spuriously claiming that it’s bad for productivity. So we need to shut the mouths of those people and really focus on better flexible working and remote working. But as well as that, from having conversations with ministers and with MPs, I’m seeing a complete narrative change in the way we talk about childcare and parental leave. So I think the future is bright and we’re on a journey now to getting to a place where we have better legislation for parents.

Claer Barrett
And for all of our critiques of the government’s flagship childcare reforms, it is amazing on many levels that they have decided to do this, to give £4bn to trying to make the system better. I mean, it’s a start.

Joeli Brearley
It’s a start. I mean, I used to talk about childcare five years ago to MPs and ministers, and they’d look at me like I had two chocolate fingers stuck up my nose, you know. It was just absolute nonsense to them. Why would we care about this? And now we’re seeing it’s the battleground of the next election. It’s been talked about in a way where it benefits the economy. This is completely different to where we were five years ago. And yes, the system is still not perfect. That 4.1bn is probably being spent quite badly. But we are seeing progression and we should be pleased with that.

Claer Barrett
So worth investing in. Maike, what would you add to all of this?

Maike Currie
Well, my positives are quite similar. That the conversations have moved on so far and that we have people like these two powerhouses fighting the good fight and in the government’s crosshairs. So things have moved on a lot. But these are deep structural issues that aren’t going to change overnight. We know that. And these things aren’t always within our control as much as we want it to be.

What is within our control is the decisions we make with regards to our long-term financial resilience. Getting engaged with our pension, talking to our partner about money. If we are working for ourselves, which a lot of women are doing, putting something away in a lifetime Isa or the right vehicle and really becoming investors. Women need to see themselves as investors, not just as savers, not just as providers, but really wrapping their arms around their own financial resilience.

Because if we take care of ourselves, we can take care of the next generation. And nothing bad happens when women have more money. It’s a game-changer for their families, for society and for the economy.

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Claer Barrett
OK, well, before we go to Anna, I’ll throw in my positive for today. So the front page of the Financial Times today is a story about a £2.9bn deal: Nationwide going to acquire Virgin Bank. That deal was done by a female banker, Debbie Crosby, who’s the chief executive of Nationwide. How fantastic for International Women’s Day that we have a big deal done by somebody who happens to be a woman running a bank on our front page, because I think that’s what we need. We need to see women represented at the highest levels of the City, the highest levels of society, showing the blokes how it’s done. But Anna, what’s keeping you happy this International Women’s Day? Cheer us all up.

Anna Whitehouse
I think you’re right. We need to celebrate these, you know, they’re not even incremental steps. These are big seismic moments. I don’t think it’s about asking, “Please, can we have flexible working? Can you change things?” I think it’s people are going to be voting with their feet. And I think we are looking towards a future that was past the working world was bulldozed in Covid. We were looking at the embers of that. The building blocks were all over it. We as women are rebuilding it one breeze block at a time with our bare hands. And it’s going to be a different world. It’s going to be a different structure. And I was saying for our girls, but Joeli’s got boys, but for our boys too, for parents, for people.

Claer Barrett
Now, Anna, it’s been a really big week for you, too. International Women’s Day, the Budget and #FlexAppeal in Parliament. Tell us more about that.

Anna Whitehouse
I opened my speech at Parliament with the fact that there were just so many gaps. I’m exhausted by the gaps. You know, you’ve got the pleasure gap, you’ve got the pensions gap, you’ve got the gender pay gap, the nursery gap. It’s like glaring holes of inequality everywhere.

Claer Barrett
What’s the pleasure gap? I clearly must fall into it.

Anna Whitehouse
It’s all linked to the gender pay gap. It’s all linked. Joeli and I work very much different sides of the same discrimination coin. I would say, you know, there’s really the drive for legislative change, obviously, on flexible working and childcare from Joeli. And from my side it has been really, to be honest, just seeing the words “flexible working” in bill is something I didn’t expect to see starting out on this, but it is utterly toothless, the current legislation. It’s really no different to where we were before, other than you can ask from day one for flexible working rather than after 26 weeks.

Claer Barrett
The employers can still say no. 

Anna Whitehouse
And they can still say what they . . . The onus is on the employee, still, not the employer. You know, and I think the list of business reasons, really loose business reasons where an employer can quite whimsically say no to somebody is wide open. So the words “flexible working bill” are there. Will it do anything on the 4th of April. No. There is so much change needed on the nuts, the bolts, the waterproofing of this bill to make it even vaguely effective for those that need it. And yeah, it’s unfortunately still lacking any punch. So that was my main point in Parliament, that there’s still a long way to go and that road we are continuing to travel and pave for our girls.

Claer Barrett
Now the politicians are listening and that’s good.

Anna Whitehouse
Are they? Are they?

Claer Barrett
The business leaders . . . (Laughter) Well, they could listen more. They could listen more. But business leaders, different . . . Maike, make the business case for business leaders who are watching this webinar about why flexible working is important for businesses and helping all of their staff, not just women, to thrive.

Maike Currie
Claer, the business case is very simple. Women are a force for economic growth. So you spoke about the Budget earlier, the announcements that the chancellor made, and there were a lot of announcements there about fuelling the UK stock market. We know the UK stock market has been struggling, domestic companies have been struggling. And they announced a British Isa to encourage people to invest in the UK.

Now what the chancellor needs to do, he doesn’t need to look any further than the US. For two years, people have been worried about the US slipping into recession. The US hasn’t slipped into recession. The UK has. And the reason why the US hasn’t slipped into recession is because of women. Women in the workforce. The Treasury secretary, Janet Yellen, has noted, you know, the one thing that stood out is the strength of the US jobs market. And the strength of the US jobs market, it’s been because post-Covid, where flexibility has become more entrenched, there are more women working. They’re coming back to the workforce, they are propping up the US economy. And it’s not just about women working, it’s also about women spending. We know that women are set to inherit 60 per cent of wealth over the next few years, really, and that women are a growing force of economic wealth. Women are increasingly the main breadwinners. And what’s happened in the US is with things like what they call the feminisation of wealth, the Barbie movie, Taylor Swift’s concerts propping up cities across the US where women are going . . . 

Claer Barrett
Beyoncé boosting inflation.

Maike Currie
Beyoncé, renaissance (inaudible) women going to those cities, spending money, with its nail bars, with its hotels. They propped up the economy to the fact now that economists in Australia, Canada, all over the world are looking at the impact of Taylor Swift’s concerts on the economy because women are going and spending. Now, women can’t spend money if they don’t have childcare in place, if they don’t have that infrastructure in place, which enables them to keep earning and to keep a foot in the door.

Claer Barrett
Well, Swiftonomics.

Anna Whitehouse
There we go.

Claer Barrett
You heard it here first for the FT’s International Women’s Day seminar.

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Well, Maike, we all know where the silent floor is in the Financial Times office. It’s the Investors Chronicle where we both used to work when we were very head down looking at the research reports there. I mean, one question that I tell people we must always ask at a job interview level, is: what is the level of match on offer in the company pension? Because that’s something that could be great at one company and appalling in another. And another one is: what’s the parental leave policy? It’s a question men should be asking too. 

Maike Currie
Definitely. And I think, you know, when we look at jobs, so my advice to the younger generation would be when you’ve got two job offers or when you’re going out and deciding how you want to navigate your career, don’t just focus on the salary. Don’t just focus on the commute. Don’t focus on the gym membership and the perks. Focus on the pension. Look at how much the matching is from the employer, because that, in essence, is free money. This is something I wish I knew when I went on maternity leave twice is if you maintain your pension contributions, even if your pay falls, and even if you have an extended maternity leave, your employer must maintain those contributions from them. So the pension is really important.

But I also think for too long the narrative around women having children has been negative. It’s been a lot of talk about how why don’t women invest? Why do women earn less? Why do women have a gender pension gap? And we talk about the hurdles and the barriers. We do need to move the dial on and talk about the enablers. What are the things we can do? What are the things that are within our gift, within our power? And the biggest thing is financial planning. Talking about money, like women have this innate ability to put everyone’s needs ahead of their own. And we are sorting everything out. We’re running the household, but we’re never thinking about our long-term financial resilience and wellbeing.

Claer Barrett
Mmm. Well, well said there, Maike.

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Now, I’ve got a question here from Faith. Thanks for your question. She is an executive coach and a huge advocate of flexible working. Now her question is: how can companies better support parents, not just women, through the different stages of parenthood? Anna, what’s your thoughts on this?

Anna Whitehouse
I think the working world is not set up on any level for female biology, from periods right the way through to menopause. It’s a man’s world, you know. The 9-to-5 was born in the Industrial Revolution when men went in and earned the bacon, then the women cooked it, and we’re still really existing in the shell of that structure, fighting out of it, screaming underwater for it to change. But still, fundamentally, we’re in that sort of vice-like grip of an archaic system. The way forward with this, from my side, is flexible working definitely needs to be retained by those at the top as an important element. So we’ve had the Equality and Human Rights Commission, they had their Working Forward pledge, which companies sign up to. And I think that transparency is needed. You know, we got Ford on there, Pets at Home, a real variety of businesses have utterly signed up to changing things within the flexible working discussion.

Joeli Brearley
We’ve got some training that we’re doing at the moment, which is free to smaller organisations. That is about reproductive health in the workplace. So it’s about fertility treatment, pregnancy loss, because most companies don’t have policies for what happens if you need to go a fertility treatment or if you lose a baby, you know, it’s just, oh, I’ll have a couple of days off and that’s when I can carry on as normal. But we need to make sure that parents are not just looked after through pregnancy and maternity leave, but also through that process of trying to start a family as well. To really get this right.

But there’s also things you can do, like carer’s leave. We have a policy at Pregnant Then Screwed, just a tiny charity where you have five paid days of dependence leaves. So if your child is starting school that day or if your child is sick, then you can have five days off additional just to do what you need to do at home. And there’s like slight punctuation points in all this, on a very basic level, when someone goes off on maternity leave, don’t lead with, well, she’s probably not coming back. You know, keep her seat warm. When someone goes for a 20-week scan, don’t make utterings about her, you know, taking time off at the office. When a woman comes back from maternity leave, lean into her. The separation anxiety, the postnatal depression and buddy her up with somebody else within the company who’s just been through it maybe. We need managers who empathise with this working world is not set up for women.

Claer Barrett
Maike . . . 

Maike Currie
Yeah, I think it’s a key point, punctuation points. And to me, one of the biggest punctuation points is returning from maternity leave. That is when a woman is feeling really vulnerable. Her whole world is changed. You go back to work, you’ve changed, but work hasn’t changed. And really wrapping your arms around those employees when they come back. What can I do to make it easier for you? What flexibility can I introduce? What support can I introduce? Because that’s also the point where we lose women. They come back and they struggle to make it work and they leave the workforce. And with technology moving as fast as it is, they struggle to re-enter.

Now, there are lots of good returner programs that are bringing women back into corporates and companies who’ve been out of the workforce for a number of years, but there’s not enough volume there. But returning from maternity leave is such a such a key point. And if we can really have programs in place where we are giving women the support they need. And also men, giving them the support they need too, we can retain that talent in the workforce.

Claer Barrett
Let’s talk a little bit about shared parental leave. Now, I’m proud to say that lots of my colleagues upstairs at the Financial Times are making use of shared parental leave, but the statistics show us that it’s not been the most popular of policies. Yet when people do it, it has great effects. Tell us more.

Anna Whitehouse
I mean, it’s failed on every measure the government has set. It’s not shared parental leave, it’s shared maternity leave. It requires the mother to give away a portion of her leave to the father or the second parent in order to use it. And of course, most mothers don’t want to do that. They want to keep it to themselves. And we know that if you segment it out, so you give that ringfence leave paid at a decent per cent of salary, then the uptake jumps massively. Today, in fact, there is new legislation that’s been laid that splits paternity leave. So currently you have to take two weeks’ paternity leave in one block. The radical change the government has made to fix paternity leave is to allow you to take that two weeks in two, one-week blocks. It’s obviously not going to make any difference to anybody. Really does not change the dial on paternity leave.

And we did some research with the Centre for Progressive Policy that found that if you ringfence paternity leave at six weeks, 90 per cent of salary, we would close the gender pay gap by 4 per cent. So this is a key to unlocking women’s equality as well as giving dads, you know, dads are parents too. They want to spend time with their kids and we know that it’s really good for them. It’s really good for children, it’s really good for families. And 18 per cent of Brits think two weeks’ paternity leave is not enough. So the public want this as well. And there’s so much conscious bias at the top of that assumption of childcare being on our shoulders. And I think there is nothing more masculine than raising your own child. And I think, there’s a whole swath of dads quietly and need to be loudly like, owning that, owning paternity leave when it’s set up for them to succeed. But owning that one desire, need to work flexibly for their own children, their own families. It is not emasculating.

Claer Barrett
Well, we had lots of different questions from the audience about this. It always surprises me how few men in the UK take up shared parental leave, or even make use of their company’s paternity benefits. A related question here: How can we encourage greater gender equality and childcare responsibilities within families? Building on from what you were saying, Anna. Maike, you’re smiling at me.

Maike Currie
Well, it’s interesting because we’ve just done a lot of research on this at Hargreaves Lansdown, looking at both enablers. So there’s a massive generational shift where those gender norms that are based in the Dark Ages really are shifting. And increasingly, young women are sharing the load and they are the main breadwinners. You know, women are earning money and they’re still embarrassed to say, you know, I’m earning money. And my other half, my partner, is taking care of the childcare, and we do need to move the dial there to accept that. There’s nothing wrong with that.

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Claer Barrett
We could talk about some of the negative headlines, companies like Boots have been in the news for rowing back on flexible working, saying they want everyone back in the office. They’re not the only ones. But I would rather give voice to some positive examples of companies who are saying, no, we’re actually going to embrace flexibility because it’s going to bring us greater prosperity, as Maike was saying. Tell us about what you’ve been finding out.

Anna Whitehouse
So we did the first-ever economic report of its kind called Flexinomics.

Claer Barrett
Which is staggering in itself that it’s the first of its kind.

Anna Whitehouse
Well, we just realised that, yes, we can say, look, we’re burnt out, we want to work more, economy let us in. But actually businesses needed the cold, hard cash, the figures on the table to understand the business reasons for doing it. And we found in that report, which was done with Sir Robert McAlpine, the construction firm, that there would be a £55bn boost to the UK economy if flexible working was effectively taken on by all businesses.

So to follow up on that point, it’s not just hot air. We’ve got the legislative change that we need, which is the nuts and bolts of what we’re trying to change. But the cultural changes I am looking at, those are waiting to be sort of hit into action or actually taking action. And with McAlpine, they got on board with this campaign because they’re like actually to facilitate this on an economic level, it’s not just about women, it’s not about mothers. It’s about our construction workers who need flexible working. It’s about the men in our industry stepping up and not seeing it as emasculating, caring for their own children.

You know, it’s the bosses and facilitating flexible work requests so that one in 10, I think, goes through men, four in 10 goes through for women. At the moment, the burden of childcare is still on our shoulders. I would say, look, there are no watertight examples, but I do love these little flickers of hope, which is companies like Deloitte, for example, publish almost like top trump cards of flexibility within their organisation. So we’ve got this day one right. What they’re doing is giving transparency to the flexibility within their companies.

Claer Barrett
So it gives women and men the confidence at job interview stage. 

Anna Whitehouse
Yeah. That you’re not feeling like it’s a bonus ball or a nice-to-have, you know, a (inaudible) reception. It’s fundamental working rights and needs.

Claer Barrett
One small change that the FT’s made is saying on all of our job vacancies: This role is available, flexi- and part-time, because I think one of the biggest problems in the gender pay gap is that we have a lot of women who are working part-time, who’ve cut their hours, and the side effects of that is that they never leave that role or go for a promotion, because they’re almost grateful to have the arrangement sorted out. And I think that flexible work coming in, I’ve seen it with my own colleagues, my own friends, is really starting to break the boundaries of people feeling like they have to stay in one job because of course, job-hopping and moving companies, that’s the quickest way that you can push up your pay is yet another factor.

Anna Whitehouse
We are going backwards. I mean, you know, we saw this week going back to a five-day working week, in the embers of Covid where, you know, if you didn’t Zoom in and log on and work flexibly, you’d quite simply have to shut down. So I think there is unfortunately a backwards move, and I think it is for all of us to move that cultural shift forwards.

The good thing that we’re seeing is lots of companies moving to a four-day working week, and I think that is really positive and trialling this since showing that it’s very successful, that it actually increased productivity and improves wellbeing, and sometimes it boosts the bottom line. So the trials that are going on across the UK that are demonstrating its effectiveness, I think hopefully will pay dividends in a few years’ time.

Claer Barrett
So we’re going to have to wrap now, but it’s down to me to say thank you to our amazing panel. Joeli, Anna and Maike, great that you could join us today. And thanks to you for joining us and everyone who shared their views and submitted questions. I promise that we will all keep campaigning for change, long after International Women’s Day is over. And finally, thanks to Aimee Allam and the FT’s Financial Literacy and Inclusion Campaign. You can visit the charity’s website: FTFlic.com. Hear more about the curriculum that we’re trying to get into secondary schools at the moment, because of course, financial education is a bigger part of solving many of the problems that we’ve talked about today.

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That’s it for Money Clinic with me, Claer Barrett, this week, and we hope you like what you’ve heard. If you did, check out other episodes we’ve made about childcare and financial planning for parents that are linked to in today’s show notes. We’re always looking to chat with people about their money issues for the show, so if you’re interested in being part of a future episode, all it takes is an email. Our address: money@ft.com. You could also take a peek at our website ft.com/money, grab a copy of the FT Weekend newspaper or follow me on Instagram and TikTok. I’m @ClaerB.

Money Clinic was produced in London by Tamara Kormornick and Persis Love. The sound design is by Breen Turner and our editor is Manuela Saragosa. You heard original tunes this week by Metaphor Music, and Cheryl Brumley is the FT’s global head of audio. And finally, our usual disclaimer. The Money Clinic podcast is a general discussion around financial topics and does not constitute an investment recommendation or individual financial advice. For that, you will need to find an independent financial adviser. That’s all the small print for now. See you back here next week. Goodbye.