FT Weekend Festival live: What next for UK property prices?

This is an audio transcript of the Money Clinic podcast episode: ‘FT Weekend Festival live — What next for UK property prices?’

Claer Barrett
Welcome to Money Clinic with me, Claer Barrett. If you’re a first-time buyer looking for a home, thinking of trading up or coming to the end of a fixed-term mortgage, this episode is for you. At the recent FT Weekend Festival, my colleague Nathan Brooker asked a team of experts for their predictions about where the UK property market could head next. As interest rates continue to rise, house price data continues to fall. But how much further prices might go is highly uncertain. With a general election on the horizon, you never know what potential stimulus measures the politicians might have up their sleeves. In fact, some of the things the experts had to say in this session definitely surprised me. So we wanted to share their insights with you. Take it away, Nathan!

Nathan Brooker
Good evening, everyone. My name is Nathan Brooker. I edit the House & Home section. I’m delighted to welcome you and our panel to our discussion on what’s next for UK house prices. It’s been a difficult time for the property market. Zoopla says this year will be the slowest for house sales for more than a decade. But what next for prices? Joining me to gaze into our collective crystal ball are Yolande Barnes, a professor at the Bartlett Real Estate Institute at UCL. We have Andrew Montlake, managing director of mortgage broker Coreco, and the buying agent Henry Pryor. Thank you. So let’s get down to it. What next for UK house prices? Where do we think prices are going to be this time next year? Henry?

Henry Pryor
Five per cent down.

Nathan Brooker
Five per cent down. Andrew?

Andrew Montlake
This time next year, 7 per cent down.

Nathan Brooker
Seven per cent. Yolande?

Yolande Barnes
I agree probably with Henry, but in real terms, I think it’s inflation that’s going to strip out the value of housing over the next year and indeed has this year.

Nathan Brooker
So five nominal, five real and down seven. OK, that concludes our session on what next. Thanks for coming in. You’ve been a great audience. Now let’s put it in some context because I’ve got a chart. Homegrown. I’ve got a chart that shows you that the UK property market has been something of a wild ride for the past three years. During the first pandemic lockdown, people thought prices would crash as the UK economy suffered its worst downturn in 300 years. Except prices didn’t go down. They went up. The average property price increased by 20 per cent over the next two years, and then everything changed. Yolande, much was made of the mortgage market turmoil in the aftermath of the Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng mini-Budget. But is the current situation worse?

Yolande Barnes
It depends which housing market you’re talking about. And I think this is one of the problems of this session. When we talk about UK house prices, what the hell are we talking about? Well, we’re usually talking about the things that transacted. So I think it’s a very, very difficult question to start to answer because there are some housing markets which even now are still rising and others which actually have been suffering horribly since the lockdown. So I think, you know, this whole conversation has to become a lot more nuanced. You know, we forget that only 26 per cent of households, I think, are actually mortgaged. A huge number of owner-occupiers own outright without a mortgage. And increasing numbers, of course, are renting. So talking about the mortgage market is becoming a really esoteric sort of exercise.

Nathan Brooker
And carrying on about the mortgage market, Andrew, we’ve had news in recent weeks that some lenders are finally starting to reduce rates. How low do you think rates have to go before the market starts moving again, kind of in earnest? And what’s the latest market expectation of when that might be?

Andrew Montlake
Well, if you look at swap rates, which are future cost of funds, which lenders base a fixed rate on, they’ve actually come down quite, quite substantially in the last two or three weeks or so. So if you look at five-year money, that’s now back down to around about 4.7 per cent. They think that actually there might be one more base rate rise. Some people think, too. But I hope it’s just the one. And it looks as if lenders are starting to think, OK, now we have to start to lend again. The differences between where we were after the Truss mini-Budget was that everyone was confused. Everyone did not know what to do. Lenders couldn’t price because the markets were moving so quickly.

So we’re in a much more stable position now and there is an expectation that inflation will continue to fall. So therefore swap rates will continue to fall, so therefore mortgage rates will continue to fall. What we’re not going to see is a sudden return to mortgage rates of 1 to even 3 per cent. So the norm is going to be mortgage rates around about 4 or 5 per cent. And if you go back before the crash in 2008, that was sort of more the norm. And I think people are quite quickly anchoring themselves back to that 4 or 5 per cent normality. And if you’re a first-time buyer and you’re looking at your cost of your rent versus the cost of a mortgage, even at 4 or 5 per cent, then actually it’s pretty even at that level. So I think rates don’t have to fall that far in order for the market to start moving again.

Nathan Brooker
And Henry, I want to bring you in, talking about mortgage buyers — we’ve seen even at kind of 4, 5, 6 per cent buyers’ spending power has been kind of hammered from where they were a year ago — have sellers’ expectations come down far enough or are they still expecting last year’s prices?

Henry Pryor
No, they’re still expecting last year’s prices. Buyers are expecting them to have suffered more greatly than they have. And sellers are waiting for someone else to blink first before they are the first in their block or that road or that avenue to drop their price to a level that buyers are prepared to commit to. But picking up from both Yolande’s and Andrew’s comments, you know, an awful lot of people aren’t hobbled by a mortgage. Lots of people don’t have a mortgage for the home they own. Lots of people are buying without a mortgage. That’s the cash prices as a proportion that seems to have held up very well. And the people that I’m probably more concerned about, those who are having to adjust, having got very comfortable on a two- or five-year fixed recently, are perhaps what, two, two and a half, who are 370,000 fixed-rate mortgages are going to come to an end in December and January, 370,000 people or households are going to have to adjust their living standards based on the fact that they’re now going to be facing 5 per cent or thereabouts.

So it’s going to be, there are people that are going to feel it. They’re the people who are doing the heavy lifting for the Bank of England, trying to stop them spending money. Frittering is that perhaps is a perception that they’re spending money stoking inflation or keeping inflation alive and everybody else is sitting there buying houses or cars or getting on with their lives because they don’t have that funding cost. That’s the big difference.

Nathan Brooker
I want to pick up something you said about cash buyers, because if anyone has read the House & Home front cover this morning, they will have found that the story quotes one Henry Pryor.

Henry Pryor
It’s nonetheless a very good story.

Nathan Brooker
Nonetheless. Still, it is still very readable. It is a story all about, uh, it is a story about cash buyers. This sort of, these are not buyers who go into a shop with a suitcase full of cash, but ones which aren’t reliant on a mortgage and they’re building a new level of power in the current market. If you need a mortgage or, heaven forbid, you have to sell a property in order to buy, do you even stand a chance at the minute?

Henry Pryor
That’s very difficult. If you aren’t able to commit to whatever it is you’ve recklessly offered. I often say to clients who were looking for houses, if you’re going to upset somebody or offend somebody even with an offer that’s much lower than they are hoping for, the very least you could do is at least be able to deliver on it if for some reason they accept that offer. And so people with a property to sell, other assets to dispose of in order to fund it or who haven’t quite got their ducks in a row are going very much to the back of the queue, unless it’s a property that nobody else seems to want, unless you are ready to go with your house, preferably exchanged and your mortgage finance organised, or ideally you are, if you’re fortunate enough to be so a cash buyer, they still wield an awful lot of power and can get and negotiate a discount.

Nathan Brooker
Andrew, if you are nevertheless committed to buying and buying with a mortgage because maybe you don’t have tons of cash, are there any products on the market that you think are particularly attractive? Are there any sweet spots?

Andrew Montlake
I think, are there any sweet spots? I think it’s quite interesting at the moment. I think the mortgage market has been crying out for innovation for a long time. You still got the same types of products you had 20, 30, 40 years ago. There’s not much difference. What I do know is that there are some lenders coming in with long-term, fixed-rate mortgages, which will work in a very different way to how they work at the moment. So they will be more flexible. They will be priced a little bit more competitively. So until we see that market, those products come into the market, it’s a bit much of a muchness at the moment.

Nathan Brooker
Thank you. You mentioned before that, you know, we’re looking at rates coming down to about 4-9-9-5 or something like that, which as you quite rightly point out before 2008 was, you know, kind of standard, kind of long-term, kind of normal rate. Yolande, I want to bring in you here, if I may. We’ve had, what is it, 15 years of incredibly low rates. Are we now entering a new era of interest rates? And how does that shape the property market?

Yolande Barnes
I would hesitate to call it a new era. Actually, I think what we’re entering is a very old era. And to illustrate that, what I want to say is that actually we’re kind of all living in the late 20th century in terms of our expectations and even language about housing. And the late 20th century was a very, very peculiar period in history. And if you look for the previous couple of hundred years, Bank of England base rates average 4 per cent, some interest. They were thinking about 6 per cent rates being high now, 4 per cent, 5 per cent, mortgage rates being normal, well, that’s really kind of back to the future, isn’t it? And I think what we’ve got to get used to is a very different sort of not just a fiscal financial environment, but actually a different sort of way of thinking about housing.

Because talk in this sort of forum always ends up talking about people getting on to the housing ladder. You know, the difficulty of young people getting on to the housing ladder. And just this notion that housing is a ladder I think is fundamentally flawed in the 21st century. I think it looks much more like a high platform. Maybe you need a ladder to get on to it. But I think, you know, our mentality, which has actually thought about the housing market being an ever upward sort of escalator, actually in the late 20th century, I think goes in this sort of environment. And what we’re looking at, I think, over the longer term, so we’re looking at, say, 2030 is much more stable, low by recent historic standards, but normal by very long-run standards, sort of interest rate environment.

Nathan Brooker
Do we think, therefore, that the sort of the data we had up there, the 2022, does that look like the kind of high water mark for property for the foreseeable future?

Yolande Barne
I go back to, in real terms, yes. And I think so much depends on what happens actually to real incomes. I think that’s what you’re looking at. There’s a correlation between average house prices and average real income growth. And that has been pretty dismal on both counts. I mean, I think we’re still about 7 per cent down in real terms since 2010. And I think it’s something people kind of feel. But we’re all caught up in this language of ever rising house prices. But actually, in real terms, a house isn’t worth as much as they were in previous periods. I think the peak was somewhere around sort of 2007.

Nathan Brooker
That’s very interesting because if you look at 2007, if you’re asking the question, “Are houses more expensive now than they used to be in 2007?”, OK, we can look at nominal prices and say, yeah, they’re twice the price. Or you can look at real prices and say, no, they’re not. But I wonder if either of those are actually perfect measures. What if you looked at the way that in terms of house prices being a multiple of people’s earnings, you’ll see they’ve gone from about four-ish, five-ish times in 2007 to 10, 11 times.

Yolande Barnes
I love the idea of a perfect measure. I just smiled to myself slightly. I think this again is incredibly nuanced because we tend to look at individual earnings where not just household income and disposable household income that matters. And I think, again, you’re talking about some real extremes in experience. And for most people, especially young people, the big affordability barrier is entry to the housing market in terms of equity. So borrowing costs are, dare I say, less important, I think, than this issue of how do you get hold of a few, tens or even hundreds of thousands of pounds to pay your deposit.

Nathan Brooker
Well, the average deposit last year in London, does anyone know or was a first-time buyer?

Henry Pryor
Monty, there must be . . . 

Andrew Montlake
I’m going to guess. I’m going to say it’s around about 50 grand.

Nathan Brooker
Now you’re at 68. Exactly. But if you’re looking at the, there’s different ways of doing it, if you go by the UK finance data, it’s £150,000. Because if you look at the average income, the average mortgage that’s taken out, which then there’s the client deposits, how does that, how on earth is anyone going to get that? How on earth is anyone going to get £50,000 or £60,000 by saving because you’re looking at ten years of savings?

Andrew Montlake
Yeah, it’s really interesting. We see it’s now the market for the bank of mum and dad or the bank of gran or granddad.

Nathan Brooker
Yeah. This is really interesting stuff, but I just wanted to check, I want to throw up to the audience, are there any questions? Because normally during these sessions, people really want to ask the experts. They don’t want to hear me. I think if we come back several times throughout the discussion, it might be a good idea. Can we take two questions now? There’s a lady here in a pink and the gentleman in the back. We take those two, maybe, and then we’ll come back to a bit more of a discussion.

Audience member 1
Perhaps I’m a bit thick, but I’m, to me, what doesn’t make sense to me and I can’t quite square is how interest rates, you expect them to come down when inflation is still 8.5 per cent. So that doesn’t quite, I’m not following that. What am I missing?

Henry Pryor
Why are interest rates, if they are the tool that is being used to tame inflation, why is it that we think that interest rates are going to come down when inflation still appears to be way past, as it always has been, it seems to me, the Bank of England’s mythical target of 2 per cent. Is that what you’re driving at? Perhaps?

Audience member 1
I would think that they’re a function of each other . . . about expectation.

Henry Pryor
Listen to these two because they actually know what they’re talking about. But my view is that the Bank of England is giving, historically, has had a toolbox with three things in it that they can use to deploy to try and tame inflation. And historically, they’ve used interest rates as the first tool they pull out, and that’s what they try and smash consumer enthusiasm by jacking up the cost of borrowing money so that we all don’t go out and spend it and on increase and pump up prices. The difference this time is that there are a very small number of people for whom interest rates apply, changes in interest rates affect. There are people who are taking out a new mortgage. And we’ve heard this afternoon that there aren’t as many as there would historically have been. More people amazingly own their house without a mortgage. They don’t care what the Bank of England does on interest rates.

Previously, where everybody, lots of people have variable-rate mortgages. So the base rate went up. We all felt it. Now the vast majority of people have a fixed-rate mortgage, so it’s going to take time for them to come out of their fixed rate and find a new rate, which is going to be painful and that’s what’s going to stop them. So the bank thinks from going in and spending their money so the Bank’s trying to judge where they should pitch rates so that when the people come in to be affected by these rates, they don’t drown them, they just dampen their ardour.

Audience member 1
Thank you. That was helpful.

Nathan Brooker
Thanks. I did say we would take two and then I just got carried away with that question. Sorry. There’s a gentleman at the back in a dark coloured top.

Audience member 2
Hi. If you’re paying presently 50 per cent in rent on the price of an interest-only mortgage would cost you on the property, the only reason it would seem to me to make sense to buy is that in future that property would go up in price. But if you’re saying that the housing is not a ladder but a platform to climb up to, then either the rents are going to go up or the housing prices are going to go down, in which case it sounds like it makes sense to wait to buy. Am I right or am I interpreting it correctly?

Yolande Barnes
Yes, you are interpreting it correctly, but I think there’s going to be continued high rises in rentals because of a supply-demand imbalance. And I think it’s going to vary enormously. But by and large I think you’re going to see rents rising so that probably by next year or the year after, they once again are more expensive than paying that interest-only mortgage.

Nathan Brooke
And a lot of questions here so do be thinking among yourself. But I’ve got a few more to go through. This section I’ve entitled Blood and Guts because it just strikes me as interesting. I want to talk about down valuations and gazundering and all of the kind of dark arts, which kind of comment at this kind of market. Henry, perhaps I could start with you. Down valuations. Are we seeing more of them?

Henry Pryor
We’re seeing lots more. They are, as far as I’m concerned, as somebody who buys houses for clients professionally, one of the most fabulous excuses you can get to renegotiate a price.

Nathan Brooker
Down valuations, sorry, just to interrupt, down valuation is when your mortgage lender values the property less than the agreement.

Henry Pryor
You agree a deal. You want to mortgage. Your mortgage lender sends out somebody usually, or sometimes they do just on their laptop, to value the property and they are scared by the price that you’ve agreed and they down value it to a lower figure, meaning that you have to do your maths all over again. You have to bother Paul, Andrew and his colleagues to recompute the offer, which is a nightmare for them. But from a negotiating point of view, we’re seeing more of it because the market is in flux, because valuers are basically thinking that both their reputation and their professional indemnity insurance on the figure they are quoting, and if they’re wrong, the lender will come after them if they were negligent.

So there’s a big incentive for valuers to remain sober and arguably cautious, which is probably what we’d all want them to be doing in the first place anyway. So if you get a down valuation as a buyer, you go back to the seller and their agents. You don’t have to say I’ve had second thoughts. I’ve got, I’m checking out. I don’t think perhaps I got carried away. My wife encouraged me to bid more than I wanted to. You can say, unfortunately, a professional has come forward and said that I was drunk or somehow we all got excited. And you extorted more money from me than you should have done. So I’m afraid I’ve got to reduce my offer. And as uncomfortable conversations go, being able to blame somebody else is the British way. (audience laughter)

Nathan Brooker
Andrew, I want to come to you. If that sort of first tactic doesn’t work and the seller’s sticking to their guns, is there anything that you can do if you’ve been given a down valuation?

Andrew Montlake
Well, first off, I’ve never met a sober valuer, so yeah, it’s interesting. The value is a very interesting breed of people and they do, they will first of all argue there’s no such thing as a down valuation.

Nathan Brooker
Of course, it’s just a value.

Andrew Montlake
It’s the correct valuation and they’re trying to mirror the market, they’re not trying to guide the market. But yeah, we have our disagreements about that. And the only thing really and this is a bit difficult, if the seller won’t budge at all, then in order to challenge a valuation successfully, you need to go back to the estate agent and get comparable evidence. And to really succeed, you need three pieces of comparable evidence so properties of a similar type in the similar postcode that have actually sold for a price at the sort of the level you’re looking at.

Nathan Brooker
That price has changed. Surely that changes the pitch entirely, right?

Andrew Montlake
Yeah, it does. It’s difficult. It’s, I think the stats are about, you know, 3 per cent of valuations that are down valued were successfully challenged.

Henry Pryor
As a buyer, why would you want to?

Andrew Montlake
But yeah and that’s also, at the company, yeah we do have that conversation with the client as well. But if the seller is not going to budge then . . . 

Henry Pryor
The seller has . . . Sorry, forgive me. In case you weren’t aware, I buy houses and I sell houses. The seller has got one house to sell. You, the buyer, can buy anything. If they don’t want to budge, that’s absolutely fine. But I still maintain, and it’s a minority view, that the buyer decides what the house is worth. And the seller has the luxury of deciding whether it’s enough or not. I’m not anti-seller. Just if you are the buyer and you’ve got a professional telling you that the house should be paying less for the house, why would you argue with them?

Nathan Brooker
Difficult when there’s an incredible shortage of supply, though, right?

Yolande Barnes
Exactly.

Nathan Brooker
Yeah. Well, let’s take the next question. Thank you. This one? Yeah.

Audience member 3
I think for the parts of the market I’ve been looking at, build cost is so much as I’m sure you’re aware. House prices are flat. There’s not that much margin before you’ll be in negative equity if you buy something that needs a bit of work for a fixer-upper. And price increases and build cost have not really been priced into houses that needs fixing up. So what do you think is going to happen to that part of the market?

Nathan Brooker
The fixer-upper? That’s an excellent question. We kind of did a story on this, the sort of the death of the fixer-upper. And, you know, does it still make financial sense to do that? Who wants to take that? And then we’ll talk about the kind of regional variation as well.

Andrew Montlake
I think the fixer-upper is really interesting. And I’d say 12, 18 months ago we did see that completely. And certainly after the outbreak of the Ukraine war, when you saw the cost of materials and as I say, the difficulties of Brexit and getting the right people, etc, we did see that completely suffer. Interestingly, we’ve noticed the last two, three months those professional landlords who are looking specifically about doing these fixer-uppers are starting to come back. They’re starting to return. They do think actually that now is the time they can potentially buy properties that are a little bit cheaper. They still have their teams that they can send in. And actually they’re looking for the future and they do think actually house prices might be on a downward turn now but actually supply and demand dictate that if you look in the future, maybe in 12, 18 months’ time, house prices are going to be going up again.

Yolande Barnes
Just because house prices aren’t rising doesn’t mean to say there aren’t buying opportunities now. And I’m really interested to hear that the fixer-upper is coming back into vogue. I have worries about the cost of construction and the overall cost of doing it, but I think there are other ways of sort of finding value in property, spotting the popular places, the good places, the prosperous places, the places that are seeing increasing productivity where especially young people want to go to is part of that. You don’t necessarily have to be fixed physically, fixing up properties, but spotting the qualities that the new demand is looking for is another way of achieving that return in a stable sort of price market.

Henry Pryor
Can I add two things?

Nathan Brooker
Absolutely.

Henry Pryor
Make the seller pay your extra costs. The deals we’re looking at, we’re doubling what we would have quoted, which is more than you need to in terms of working out what we have to spend on something. So the client’s going to spend 50 grand. We’re factoring in 100 grand for all the reasons you’ve described, and the seller has to take that kind of pain. It’s part of why prices for those sort of things are starting. You may not see them yet on Rightmove, but you will start to see them come through on the land registry on their next data. Be patient and don’t be tempted to take this, take the hit yourself.

In Kent, you’re going to find just as other places like the, like Cornwall, you know, all these seaside places that have seen after lockdowns, everybody rushing out and wanting to work two days in their office and the rest of the week in their new home with a garden and space and all that sort of stuff. You’ve seen the bump in Kent, as other areas have. And that bump, I don’t think is going to fall back. There are people who do argue perhaps it’s not quite as fun and Nathan and his colleagues write some bits about how I went to the Cotswolds and there was too much oxygen and I’ve come rushing back to Hackney. I don’t think that’s going to be a thing because of what Yolande describes, which is where the market wants to be.

Nathan Brooker
Plus, you want to come on to that kind of idea about the regional sort of variation. So if we think about 2008 and the last time there was a kind of any notable downturn, the recovery speeds were very, very geographically split. Right? And there were also in terms of they were in very different specific sections of the market. What do we think is going to happen kind of next? Yolande, maybe you could take that.

Yolande Barnes
Well, I think we can take our clues, actually, from what’s happening in the rental market. I like rentals because they are really good indicators of very fundamental people voting with their feet in terms of demand. So my advice would be is to look at what’s happening in a local area. And I was really interested to find that in the year of the pandemic, so the year to September 2021, the biggest rental rises, whilst rents in London fell by about 7 per cent in London, the biggest rental rises were in Rochdale, Altrincham, Folkestone and Farnham. So sort of small, small towns, good kind of good places with a kind of heritage and regeneration aspect to them. And I think we’re going to continue to see those kind of really qualitative differences between certain places and certain types of property.

So I think, you know, generally speaking, your city centre flat with no outside space is going to suffer relative to the good little terraced house or semi with a garden in a good, one of these good places. So it’s so nuanced. It is going to be really difficult to get that out of the data as it were. But I think it’s going to show up in your experiences of buying for example.

Nathan Brooker
And I think we are almost out of time. So there’s only kind of one final question I wanted to come at and it is sort of to call it back at what we said at the beginning of the session where we sort of . . . 

Henry Pryor
I’ve changed my mind. Ten per cent!

Nathan Brooker
OK, sure. So we kind of said sort of fairly modest figures, 10, 5 to 10, sort of 10 in real terms. You know, if you’re looking at the great story, history of house price crashes in the United Kingdom, 2008, the 1990s was even worse, my question is: how close or what needs to happen to trigger a crash on the scale of 2008? How close are we? Is it even a vague possibility? Henry, what do you think?

Henry Pryor
We’re miles away. We’re not going to see a crash. In order to get a crash, you’ve got to have a whole load of property that has to be sold. Repossessions, for example, being the obvious catalyst, which doesn’t seem to me is that we’re going to see a whole load of repossessions that are then dumped on the market and sold at any price. And if we take away, if you take away just one thing from today, I think it’s what Yolande was talking about and what Nathan, interestingly, was hinting at, which is that there isn’t one market. We have a house price index produced by the Nationwide and Rightmove, the Halifax, anybody, man and his dog, has a house price index. Because it gets good PR, it gets written up and talked about. But the house, the UK housing market is a patchwork quilt. Loads of different markets, different people doing different things.

Look at the fundamentals of where do you want to live? It’s a home, not an asset. It might turn into an asset, but then trying to judge the success of your prowess as a negotiator or homeowner or dealer or whatever, by the national average, I’ve done this for 40 years. I’ve never seen the average house. I don’t know where it is. I don’t know how much it’s worth or why it’s worth. They tell us it is worth.

Nathan Brooker
Well, I think we better leave it there. But thanks very much, guys. Thank you very much, Henry. Thank you, Andrew. And thank you, Yolande Barnes.

Claer Barrett
Our thanks to Nathan Brooker, the FT’s House & Home editor. That’s it for Money Clinic this week. And we hope you like what you’ve heard. You can sign up for the House & Home Unlocked newsletter. There’s a link in today’s show notes, and we’re always open to your ideas. If you’d like to be a featured guest on the podcast, you can get in touch with us. Our email address is money@ft.com. And of course, you can find me on Instagram. I’m @ClaerB. This week’s episode was produced by Philippa Goodrich. Our executive producer is Manuela Saragosa. And sound design was by Breen Turner with original music by Metaphor Music. Cheryl Brumley is the FT’s global head of audio.

And finally, our usual disclaimer. The Money Clinic podcast is a general discussion around financial topics and does not constitute an investment recommendation or individual financial advice. For that, you will need to find an independent financial adviser. That’s all the small print for now. See you back here next week. Goodbye.