Transcript: L&A — What young wine drinkers want

This is an audio transcript of the Life and Art from FT Weekend podcast episode: ‘L&A — What young wine drinkers want’

Lilah Raptopoulos
This is Life and Art from FT Weekend. I’m Lilah Raptopoulos. If you’ve been to a wine shop recently, at least here in New York, you might have noticed a new class of wine that’s shown up. Wine that’s clearly marketed towards younger drinkers. There are beautiful labels. There are back stories about women-owned vineyards. There are trendy styles like pét-nats and effervescent reds. This is not your Dad’s wine. A lot of these bottles are more expensive than a simple quality red, and I could call it all hype, but I actually like the backstories and I like how these wines taste. I’m just not quite sure why I am now defaulting to a $30 chilled red instead of a nice old-school Chianti. So we have wine writer Hannah Crosbie on today. She recently wrote a column for us called “What young wine drinkers want”. And she’s the founder of a wine club aimed at younger drinkers in London. She’s here to tell us about the cool wine epidemic. Hannah, hi. Welcome to the show.

Hannah Crosbie
Hi. Thank you so much for having me. It feels so international.

Lilah Raptopoulos
(Laughter) It’s so international. Thanks for being here.

Hannah Crosbie
Yeah.

Lilah Raptopoulos
So you founded a wine club called the Dalston Wine Club, and you host nights that are meant to get young people familiar with different wines. And I’m curious, before we get into what’s trendy now, just how you’re approaching the fact that there are these new trends.

Hannah Crosbie
So I’ll say the Dalston Wine Club kind of started out of necessity. It started in 2020, the first year out of lockdown, where under lockdown, you know, it brought our drinking habits into sharp focus, I always say. So it kind of birthed this new generation of wine drinkers who were looking for opportunities to, you know, not just try new exciting wines, but also critically taste. And you know, when I host these nights, yes, we are kind of we get a bit merry and you know, we learn a thing or two. But it is also we’re drinking the wines that young people want to drink, whether that’s because, you know, they are a new, exciting style, which I’m sure we’ll talk about in a bit, like a pét-nat or an orange wine or like a chilled red. We are also drinking thematically. So, for example, most recently we did an orange wine night, which yeah, I can’t see your faces, but I can be like, OK, yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s a trendy one. That’s a trendy one. But before that, I did a Pinot Noir evening. So at both ends of the spectrum, whether you’re kind of going trad. Yeah, you can’t see me, but I’m wiggling my fingers. Trad wines are natural wines. The thing that kind of unites them all together, as I was saying in the article, is this focus on sustainability and the stories behind them.

Lilah Raptopoulos
OK, so these are two things that are popular. I feel like I’m an anthropologist of young people. I’m only 34. (Laughter) But the things that you’re saying are popular are sustainability. People want to know the stories behind their wines. What else would be included in what young people are looking for in a wine more generally?

Hannah Crosbie
I think, yeah, speaking really generally, I think there’s a real willingness to experiment and try different things, more so than the ever has before. And generally speaking, it is the older generations that will stick to their tried and tested wines. You know, they’re not particularly interested in experimenting with the new styles of wine. You know, low intervention stuff, natty stuff, sustainable stuff. Although it is something that is of increasing importance to them, the latter. But it’s the younger generations that, you know, are extremely willing to experiment with, not just grape varieties, but the different way the wine is made. So you mentioned before, kind of like pét-nats and orange wines, chilled reds, warmer whites, which is like a drum that I’m really banging on at the moment.

Lilah Raptopoulos
What did you . . . what is it? What kind of white?

Hannah Crosbie
Warmer whites.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Warmer white.

Hannah Crosbie
Not warm whites. Warmer whites. So wines that haven’t been chilled to within an inch of their lives ...

Lilah Raptopoulos
Oh, cool.

Hannah Crosbie
. . . from an ice bucket.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Totally, yeah. Now I’m thinking out warmer whites. OK, warmer whites. (Laughter) In your column, you mentioned that young people are drinking less wine and drinking less in general, but are willing to spend more on, like, a single bottle. Is that right?

Hannah Crosbie
Yeah. That’s correct. I mean, it’s . . . I think I say in the article, it’s no secret that the wine industry is incredibly wary of the drinking habits of Gen Z and millennials. I mean, there’s more output than ever, and it’s great that there’s more demand. I think lockdown born like a new generation of wine drinkers, I call them, but they’re definitely not drinking as much of it. I think that. But then, like you say, the average bottle spend is far higher. And that sort of ties into what we were talking about before. You know, if you’re going to place an emphasis on sustainability and not having everything mechanised and, you know, picking grapes by hand and more of a human element, then of course things are going to cost more, you know what I mean.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, totally. Yeah.

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So let’s dig into it a little. So there are pét-nats. There are orange wines. There are chilled reds. There’s like wines with a slight effervescence. I’m seeing a lot. Things like Lambrusco does seem pretty cool. Can you tell me a little bit about . . . Just walk us through it.

Hannah Crosbie
Sure. So I’ll start at the top. So a pét-nat wine — pét-nat is short for pétillant naturel, which means “naturally sparkling”. So usually when you make a traditional sparkling wine, like a champagne or a Cava, it has two fermentations, and then that’s what gives it. When the yeast eats up the sugar, that’s what creates the fizz, right? So with pét-nat, there’s only one fermentation. And then they only have the first fermentation. They seal it with a crown cap after the first fermentation. And that is what gives it its fizz. So it’s kind of a very, low-intervention, natural, old-fashioned kind of quite rustic way of making a sparkling wine. And that can come in all colours, you know: white, red, pink, orange.

Lilah Raptopoulos
OK, so that’s pét-nats. What about specifically orange wine?

Hannah Crosbie
So I always say that orange wine is like making red wine out of white grapes. So usually when you make a white wine, you crush the grapes, you’ll press them and you’re left with a clear liquid. With orange wine, what you do is you crush the white grapes, but then you actually leave the juice in contact with the grape skins, the seeds, the stems for anything for, you know, a few minutes, up to hours, days, sometimes even weeks. And the longer you do that, the more colour and tannin will be extracted from the white grapes. And that will really depend on kind of like the depth of colour and the intensity of the resulting wine. So that is how you get like this gorgeous orange colour — or depending on the grape, a bit more of a gentle orange colour.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah.

Hannah Crosbie
Chilled reds.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Chilled reds — how did that happen? I mean, that’s more of a style, right? Like it’s not, it’s just like a type of red that’s light enough to work chilled.

Hannah Crosbie
Yeah, exactly. That’s a really good way of putting it. So chilled reds, I mean, I love a chilled red. I think it’s a great way to enjoy wine. It’s a great way to enjoy red wines, especially in the summer. So yeah, I mean, very few wines are made with the sole intention of being chilled. But generally speaking, if it’s low in tannin, if it has like bright, crunchy red fruit flavours and it’s got great acidity, it’s really going to sing and bring out kind of the gentle aromatics when it is chilled. Don’t try chilling like an overly big, bold, tannic wines. All you’re going to be able to taste is the tannin. It’ll taste horrible. Don’t do it.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Don’t put your Brunello in there.

Hannah Crosbie
Don’t do it.

Lilah Raptopoulos
(Laughter) OK. And then what about like when you say biodynamic wines, you’re not really like going to a section in the wine shop of biodynamic wines, right? How did that become a trend?

Hannah Crosbie
Yeah. So the one thing that I’ll say with natural wine, and maybe I should have started the podcast off by using this is like, yeah, before we go any further, let’s talk about natural wine ...

Lilah Raptopoulos
(Laughter) A disclaimer. Yeah.

Hannah Crosbie
. . . and how . . . well, the term natural wine isn’t legally defined. So in and of itself, it is a difficult thing to pin down. Two things that you can pin down, however, or are, organic wines. But it’s also worth noting that when you are organic, in some countries, you can still spray your vines with copper, which isn’t a very natural process. So it really, really pays to, you know, as I was saying, learn the story, learn about the specific viticultural practices of certain producers, because, again, someone could call themselves organic but then have a lot of additions in a wine.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right. And then let’s finish out with biodynamic wines.

Hannah Crosbie
Biodynamic is another certification you can get. You have to jump through a lot of hoops. Biodynamic winemaking is kind of like organic winemaking but on steroids. Opinions differ as to whether biodynamic winemaking is a thing that impacts the final flavour of the wine. I am very much of the opinion that if you are, you know, bothered enough, as I was saying, to spend all of those years jumping through the hoops, getting a biodynamic certification, and you are . . . I mean, in order to do biodynamic winemaking properly, you are in the vineyard all the time, which is obviously going to result in bad wines. Having a more hands-on approach in the vineyard means that you’re going to, you know, spot diseases as they pop up. It means that you’re going to be able to tackle problems more head on, and you’re going to have a much more intimate relationship with the vines and your winemaking. So I think it’s a good thing. But yeah, I thought that is a very, very long . . . a very, very long answer to quite a complicated issue.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, no, that’s helpful. You know, it’s interesting you’re saying that young people are more willing to explore. I was going to ask you whether all of this adds up to a kind of palate that’s in right now among younger drinkers. Is there one palate that’s in right now and if so, what? Or is that just constantly changing?

Hannah Crosbie
Oh. I think yeah, I think it’s constantly changing. But I think back in the day it all used to be about like power and alcohol and tannins and deep complexity. Whereas now I think that, I mean, there’s a reason that, you know, Burgundian and Bordeaux winemakers are also, you know, moving to make wines that are designed to be drank a little bit younger but have like a freshness and acidity, I think, and like kind of a real subtle complexity as opposed to, you know, just like massive tannic wines that are going to completely blow you out the water.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Right.

Hannah Crosbie
So yeah, I will say that, generally speaking, particularly the young wine drinker, this is something that they really value in their wines. And I think that that’s reflected in the trad wines that they’re interested in. I think I also say, you know, I don’t really looking too far into the future. We’re not buying wines that we’re going to drink in 10 years because we don’t really know what we’ll be doing in 10 years. We’re going to be drinking wines that can be enjoyed now and in the moment.

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Lilah Raptopoulos
OK. So I also want to get a sense of why we seem to now care about the stories behind wine. It feels like people want to know whether the work is equitable and reflects their politics. It seems like people like the idea because winemaking has been so masculine for so long that like people like the idea of women-owned wineries. What are the stories bringing to this whole sort of trend-making process?

Hannah Crosbie
Yeah, I kind of attribute it to the millennial desire to know the provenance of absolutely everything that you interacted. (Laughter) And so we should. I mean, I am technically a millennial, I was born in 1997, so I am right on the cusp. But yeah, I would say it’s a symptom of, you know, the millennial desire to know about provenance. I mean, it’s why, you know, you buy free range eggs. It’s why that you go and shop at your local butcher. I think the people are becoming much more wary about, you know, industrialised agriculture, about the effects that has on our environment, on our animals. They’re a lot more wary about where they’re spending their money and what kind of. Yeah, like you say, they want to spend their money with people where they feel like at least their ethical and social politics are aligned. So, you know, usually when you kind of walk into a wine store, you might go, tell me a bit about that. You’ll usually get like a like one-minute spiel on the people that have made the wine and, you know, whether they fell in love when they were interning in Bordeaux together. (Laughter) But they will give you as well as telling you how the wine was made, they’ll tell you about the people who made it, which is something that’s incredibly important to this new generation of drinkers.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. You know, cynical people would say that it starts to get a little shticky or it’s a risk of getting shticky that like, it would be easy to sort of slap women-made winery on to something and then suddenly that gives it some sort of credibility or some sort of story. I don’t know. What do you think?

Hannah Crosbie
Yeah. No, that’s fair. That’s fair. I mean, it’d be easier way to do it, but I’d say it’s no more shticky than literally every single château in France saying we care about terroir. (Laughter) I mean, everyone’s got to have a spiel, right? Because there’s a lot of wine. And that you need to find a way to differentiate yourself from, you know, all of your neighbours and everyone else in the region. And you know, I think that the personal story, the human story is ultimately what we resonate with.

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Lilah Raptopoulos
So for those of us who are in, right, like we love the stories and we care about how it’s made, how do we make sure we choose the right ones?

Hannah Crosbie
I suppose it depends on where you’re buying your wine. So I do get asked by people: how do I buy natural wine in the supermarket? And I’m like, you can’t really. The natural wine that you want to drink, you won’t be able to find in the supermarket. But like I just said, you are able if you keep an eye out for, you know, organic certification, biodynamic certification, you can drink something that’s like a natural wine. But in terms of very low-intervention, low use of sulphur, that is the kind of thing that you are going to be finding in your independent bottle shops.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, yeah. Are there any wines that you think are getting overshadowed? And I ask that because it’s winter and I know that these light, effervescent wines are cool, but I’ve been finding myself wanting these like big, sticky, heavy, uncool reds.

Hannah Crosbie
Oh, my god, there’s no such thing as uncool wine.

Lilah Raptopoulos
And, well, that’s interesting. I’m happy to be uncool. I just, I wonder, sort of like, yeah, what we’re sort of losing when we’re looking at these new ones, or if there’s anything that we kind of shouldn’t.

Hannah Crosbie
Yeah. Maybe one thing that we miss out, generally speaking. I don’t know if you guys are the same because your seasons tend to be much more pronounced, but we tend to drink quite seasonally in the UK, and I think that people get quite restricted by that. And you know, when it is the winter months, when it’s absolutely freezing outside and you just want to curl up with something massive and tannic, which you’re very welcome to. I think that we have and I had like, oh no. I’ll have, you know, your spritzy vino verde. I’ll have that in spring, summer, or I could only drink rosé in the summer. Obviously there are some wines that lend themselves incredibly to the seasons, but like I say, enjoying a chilled red in the summer is something that we should open our minds to or drink perhaps a more tannic, gastronomic rosé in the winter time. And that will give you just as much satisfaction as a bold red.

Lilah Raptopoulos
OK. Hannah, the last thing I’m going to ask you for is just recommendations. You are our resident young person on this episode, and as a resident young person, I’m curious what you’ve been drinking that you would urge us to try.

Hannah Crosbie
So starting off the top with pét-nats: I mentioned in the article of my friend, Freddy Bulmer, who is one of the wine buyers at the Wine Society, and I was really surprised to find a winemaker called Tim Wildman on there. Astro Bunny and Piggy Pop, I mean, they’re very funky labels. Look them up. They look like, you know, your classic low-intervention natural wine. I was like, “Huh”. The Wine Society, with over 150 years of, you know, quite classic wine history, are buying quite like a natural like icon wine. And the reasoning that Freddy gave was that it is by far the most consistent one that he has ever tasted in that category. And for a buyer, consistency is everything. Right? So you can, minimise the amount of stock that sent back. And especially in supermarkets, you know, consistency is key. You want to make sure that generally speaking, all of the wine is going to taste pretty much the same. And that’s why you won’t really find any, you know, slightly sensitive, zero-edition natural wines in a supermarket.

In terms of orange wine, the most ancient examples of orange wine are from Georgia. So try and get your hands on a Georgian wine. Pheasant’s Tears is a very iconic winery. You can seek out some of that wine than you can probably get a really good idea of, you know, an ancient way of winemaking and a very classic example of orange wine.

And then chilled reds. Yeah. I mean, I think the . . . in terms of chilled reds, the styles that lend themselves for me very nicely are French wines. So kind of, you know, your Parisian bistro-style classics. So Cabernet Franc, Grenache, maybe a bit of Carignan, which really nice, especially a Pinot Noir. Oh, my god, I mentioned Pinot Noir. It’s like straight out of the gate . . . 

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Lilah Raptopoulos
OK. So I guess, you know, my last big question is, you have a book coming out this spring. Congratulations.

Hannah Crosbie
Thank you.

Lilah Raptopoulos
And it pairs wine with actual real life-situations, if I understand it right. Like, what wine do you buy to meet your new partner’s parents, or what did you drink on a plane? It did make me want to ask you: what do you do when you’re in a supermarket or on a plane? Or in a sort of like uncool wine shop where there isn’t somebody to help you. I’m curious about situations like that. What is your recommendation for people?

Hannah Crosbie
I think that you need to go into that supermarket or pub or, aeroplane, I guess, with an idea of the kind of style of wine you want to drink. So, for instance, with the meeting the parents the first time, I think I gave Cabernet Sauvignon because, you know, it’s tried and tested favourite. People feel like it’s a bit more expensive. It’s quite fancy that, like, oh, you have all your own teeth and you own a bed frame. OK. So kind of going into a supermarket with the idea of what I want. And that’s where the book comes in, really, because it says what you should look out for on the label. So, Cabernet Sauvignon, it might be part of a Bordeaux blend. So you go in and you kind of look for things like Bordeaux Superieur, because you’re unlikely to find any named château. But you can look out for the words Cabernet Sauvignon if it’s, you know, a wine from the southern hemisphere somewhere like Australia or Chile. So coming in with the information of what style of wine you want to walk out with, whether that’s down to the variety, or you want to drink something French, or you are just in the mood to drink something organic or biodynamic, it’s a lot easier to, you know, sniff that out, look for the certification, look for the bright green label and walk away with something that you want.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Mm-hmm. Hannah, thank you so much for being on the show. This was so informative and so fun.

Hannah Crosbie
Thank you so much for having me.

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Lilah Raptopoulos
That’s the show. Thank you for listening to Life and Art for FT Weekend. I’ve linked to Hannah’s column in the show notes. That link will get you past the paywall on FT.com. Hannah also has a book coming out this spring called Corker. I will be gone for the next two episodes, but you will be in the safe hands of my exceptional producers, Lulu and Katya. They have some really great episodes planned for you. Other things in the show notes are discounts for a subscription to the Financial Times and ways to stay in touch with me, on email and Instagram. I love hearing from you.

I’m Lilah Raptopoulos and here is my talented team. Katya Kumkova is our senior producer. Lulu Smyth is our producer. Our sound engineers are Breen Turner and Sam Giovinco, with original music by Metaphor Music. Topher Forhecz is our executive producer and our global head of audio is Cheryl Brumley. Have a lovely week and we’ll find each other again on Friday.