Money Clinic live: How to get a pay rise

This is an audio transcript of the Money Clinic podcast episode: ‘Money Clinic live — How to get a pay rise’

Claer Barrett
Hello, Money Clinic listeners. It’s Claer here. And on this week’s episode, we asked the question that’s on everybody’s lips: how to ask for a pay rise. I assembled a top team to answer listeners’ questions at the FT Weekend Festival earlier this month. And thanks to everybody who sent one in. If you weren’t able to be there, then don’t worry, because thanks to the FT’s financial literacy and inclusion campaign, FLIC for short, you can sit back and listen to what our experts had to say. Good luck!

[AUDIENCE CLAPPING]

If you are here in the Money tent today, welcome. We’re going to assume that everybody in here would quite like a pay rise. Am I right? Yay! Fantastic. Well, the problem is, of course, at the moment everybody does, but not everybody knows how to ask. And that’s what the panel — me, Claer Barrett, FT’s consumer editor; Jonathan Black, whom you may know better as Dear Jonathan, certainly he’s very dear to us, he’s our careers columnist and also the head of the careers service at the University of Oxford so he knows a thing or two; and last but not least, Isabel Berwick, my wonderful colleague at the FT, who is behind our fabulously successful Working It newsletter and podcast, which will give you a daily dose on the newsletter of everything that’s going on in the workplace and a fantastic podcast to boot. So we’ve had lots of questions already from FT podcast listeners. We talked to you all on Instagram and on LinkedIn. Isabel is very hot on LinkedIn and so is Jonathan. So we’re really impressed with the quality and depth of problems that you’ve brought to our door. But we thought we’d start off with some quick fixes.

Now we’ve called this “Never mind the Bank of England”, this session. We like to be a little bit controversial as journalists after both the governor and the chief economist at the central bank have said in separate interviews that we shouldn’t be asking for pay rises except that you’re going to be poorer, in the words of a few people with a very controversial interview we did a few months ago. Now, that’s easy to say, of course, if you’re on a six-figure salary. But for the rest of us, Jonathan, realistically, do you think that anybody is not going to ask for a pay rise because of what the Bank of England think?

Jonathan Black
Well, realistically, no. It reminded me of the people who leave £10 in their will to pay off the national debt. But the people who are very altruistic and even if they did get a pay rise, they can assuage their own conscience by saying, I’ll be paying more taxes anyway so the Treasury would be happy.

Claer Barrett
That’s a very good point.

Claer Barrett
OK. And Isabel, I mean, from where you sit, you’re contacted by lots of readers who presumably are wanting a pay rise more than ever at the moment. Do you think the Bank of England’s stance is going to affect them?

Isabel Berwick
No, (laughter) absolutely not.

Claer Barrett
And in terms of the people who are contacting you saying that pay is a big issue for them at the moment, obviously, cost of living pressures, mortgages becoming more expensive, childcare, perennial issue for working parents, let me get some top tips, some dos and don’ts, if you like, from each of you to really start the session off before we get into the questions that people have sent in and also the questions I’m sure you are wanting to ask, because we do have time for those as well. So, Isabel, tell us a few dos and don’ts and then we’ll go on to Jonathan.

Isabel Berwick
OK. I’m gonna start with our favourite, Claer. Fobsag.

Claer Barrett
Fobsag. Tell everybody what that means.

Isabel Berwick
Fobsag stands for fear of being seen as greedy, which is the biggest barrier to asking for a lot of people. I’m gonna say women. I don’t mean to exclude men, but it is more commonly women. You don’t want to look a bit grasping. You don’t want to think someone feels badly of you. That is not the case. You know, your employer is not your family. It’s OK to ask for a pay rise and Fobsag is what you have to keep in your head.

Claer Barrett
OK, so avoid Fobsag. Jonathan, what would you like to throw in?

Jonathan Black
There’s always money. You’ve got to assume the organisation always has money because . . . 

Claer Barrett
Because it’s still going.

Jonathan Black
Yeah. Don’t think, “Well, I can’t ask because I will take money out of somewhere else.” If you want a don’t, it’s people who say, I’ve just got a new qualification, therefore you need to pay me more.

Claer Barrett
OK. And the don’ts from you, Isabel?

Isabel Berwick
”I need . . . ” “I deserve . . . ” Those are red flags for bosses. They won’t listen to anything else you say.

Claer Barrett
OK. What is it about “I deserve” that is particularly toxic?

Isabel Berwick
It’s very triggering because everyone deserves. And if you’re the manager listening to that, you’re gonna be thinking, “Well, I deserve too, so why the hell should I be . . . ” So it’s a sort of, it creates a negative vibe from the outset. You need to frame your request in a way that is gonna get your manager onside. Even if they’re not the person who can OK your pay rise, you need them onside so they can ask the person higher up the chain. Because you can be absolutely sure you’re gonna drop off if they, if you’ve, to use a phrase, pissed them off in your opening statements.

Claer Barrett
Fantastic. Some technical terms. I think we’ve had the word “piss off” on the Money Clinic podcast before, so I’m sure Manuela, our editor, who’s in the audience . . . Oh, she’s smiling. That’s always good news. So our first two questions that people have sent in are on the theme of finding your worth. So how can I determine, writes this female reader, “How can I determine what the market rate of pay is when there is so little transparency among my peers?” And another woman who emailed in and she said, “I strongly suspect that the man doing the equivalent role in my firm is being paid more than I am, even though we have the same levels of experience and success. What can I realistically do about this?” Well, let’s start off with the more general question first about market rate. Jonathan, if you’re trying to go in and work out whether you’re being overpaid or underpaid, how would you go about it?

Jonathan Black
First stop: job ads.

Claer Barrett
OK.

Jonathan Black
So whether on LinkedIn or in the trade journals that are relevant, the trade websites relevant to your industry, find out roughly what people are being paid or being offered.

Claer Barrett
Often they don’t have a figure on, I find. The actual job advert. So they could have a range.

Jonathan Black
Well, the range is helpful because you’re going to go in with a range anyway and say, “I’d like between X and Y. I was really looking more towards the top of that range.” But I think that’s an external view. Glassdoor, places like, websites like that that will tell you what people are earning. Inside the organisation, it’s quite hard. I mean in the public sector, such as, well, I’m in the quasi-public sector in the university, it’s very transparent. This is a Grade-8 job, that’s a Grade-6 job, you can look it up on the website. That’s what Grade 6 gets paid, between X and Y. So that bit’s straightforward. But in the private sector it is more difficult and people won’t tell you.

Claer Barrett
Isabel, finding your worth, this is something you’ve written a lot about in the FT. What advice would you give to the audience?

Isabel Berwick
I sort of think there’s a lot more sharing of salaries now and actually that’s something I’m always telling people what I am, not going to say now, but you can come and ask me later. And I have helped colleagues get pay rises. And I think, who’s benefiting from the secrecy? The bosses. So I know there’s a lot of spreadsheet-sharing that’s going on among younger workers in industries. You might be able to get in on some of that. But actually if you have coworkers that you get on with and you can ask, there is nothing better because you might find a massive discrepancy. I’ve heard from readers who have been paid tens of thousands next to the person they’re sitting next to. And that is extraordinary.

Claer Barrett
I mean, and part of it Jonathan is due to the fact that when you were recruited, of course, because the labour market is very tight at the moment, so if you want to entice somebody to leave another firm, come join your firm, you might have to pay them more because the market rate at the moment, especially for certain jobs, certain sectors, you know, the market’s very tight, but in other times, times of recession, if you’re taken on them, then you’re the kind of people sitting on the chairs in the tent, you probably really should be asking for a raise because you would have started at another base.

Jonathan Black
Well, and we had a Dear Jonathan question a few weeks ago of someone saying, “I’m on this salary and they’ve just recruited somebody with less experience, less qualifications, less this, and they’re getting paid more. Now what?”

Claer Barrett
And what was your response to that?

Jonathan Black
You don’t have perfect information. You don’t know what, you clearly didn’t know what the bosses were looking for when they were recruiting. They might have been looking for so-called softer skills or softer experience. So it’s not just about the things you can see, you know. You know that you have asymmetric information, you know everything about yourself, a bit about the other people, and probably not much about the recruiters.

Claer Barret
Now, to go on to our second question about finding your worth, this is the woman, (sound of a dog barking), yeah, it makes me angry too! (audience laughs), who suspects that a man in her workplace doing the equivalent role is being paid more, even though they have the same level of experience and success. Now me, realistically, if you are in that position, it may not be a gender thing. It may be that you’re a man looking at another man in your organisation. What would you suggest?

Jonathan Black
It may be, but I think there is some organisations, let’s be clear, do have the ugly effect of sexism, ageism, misogyny and so on. And you have to . . . and you’re probably not going to be able to change that from your position in the organisation. You can bring it out with the sort of things Isabel was saying about actually let’s just be transparent about what people are earning.

Claer Barrett
OK, Isabel, anything to add on that one?

Isabel Berwick
Yeah, you can ask to be benchmarked. You can, you’re gonna ask me what law it is, I can’t remember. But under the law you can ask to be benchmarked. If you’re a woman, you can ask to be benchmarked against a man doing the same job as you or what you perceive to be the same job as you. And in most organisations you can ask for a benchmark which will give you a range. So ask HR or whoever the relevant person is for a benchmark.

Isabel Berwick
And then in larger organisations, of course, where they do have to report staff salaries as part of the gender pay gap, I mean, yes, it’s an average figure. But Jonathan, do you think that that is having any beneficial effects when it comes to women? We’ve got lots of women in the tent today who are asking for a pay rise. Could it give an extra incentive to the bosses to think, well, if we do give them some extra cash, then it will help to make our external statistics look a bit better?

Jonathan Black
Yes, I think it has brought it out a bit or exposed the issues a bit. You really would like to find a senior member of management, maybe a woman, maybe a man who’s going to pick this up as a champion and champion that and get it on the agenda each time, say, well, are we paying them the same and have, get the discussion at least started.

Claer Barrett
Because ultimately, if people are gonna leave your organisation because they think they’re being treated unfairly, then it’s bad. It’s bad for the company. OK, well, we’re gonna get emotional next. We love to get emotional in the Money tent. There are so many undercurrents of emotion that are woven into our relationship with money. And no more so than it comes to asking for a pay rise. Now, what we’re paid isn’t the only reflection, of course, of how we’re valued, but it’s a really important part of the equation. And our next question, which also comes from a woman — don’t worry, we do have some from men. It’s just, the ones from women were the ones we wanted to start off with — she says, “I love my job. How do I ask for a raise without my boss thinking that I want to leave the company or that I’m unhappy?” Who wants to go first on tackling that one?

Isabel Berwick
Oh, well, I think this is a psychological thing. You know, we bring our family relationships to work. I think this person’s in a relationship where they’re looking at their boss as their parent. My dad is actually at the back of the room there. Oh, I brought the family right into the tent. But they . . . 

Claer Barrett
You did a good job, Isabel’s dad. (Laughter)

Isabel Berwick
But, you know, take a step back. This is, again, this is not your family. It is a workplace. You know, get a new boss. I mean, honestly.

Claer Barrett
Hmm. OK. Jonathan?

Jonathan Black
Yeah. It reminds me of the application letters that students write, which are really strong all the way through. So the final sentence, which always becomes very needy — I do hope you can read my thing, and I do hope we can meet and I can talk about. You are not needy. To your point, this is an adult-adult relationship, not a parent-child relationship, I’m asking for more pocket money.

Claer Barrett
Hmm. And this also feeds into aspects of, you know, how we approach promotion, because, of course, one of the best ways to get a pay rise is to go for promotion within your company. It’s an absolute must that if you’re being moved up the ranks, then you know, you need to have a conversation about the cash. But Isabel, you did an article in the FT recently where you were talking about people who pick up the kind of jobs in the office that are not really gonna get you anywhere . . . (Inaudible)

Isabel Berwick
Oh, the NPT . . . (Inaudible)

Claer Barrett
Yeah, tell us about NPT.

Isabel Berwick
So NPTs are non-promotable tasks. It is also known as office housework. It is predominantly done by women. It is things like the leaving collection, the birthday card, the cake. Some of this may be familiar to some of you. We do a lot of it at the FT. And . . . 

Claer Barrett
The minute-taking.

Isabel Berwick
The minute-taking in meetings. If you are perceived as someone who is, does the NPTs for the team, you are not someone who is perceived as going places or, you know, it’s about internal perception of your role. So get someone else to get the birthday card next time. You know, shift yourself into a role where you are seen as someone who is dynamic and, you know, ready for promotion.

Isabel Berwick
So say, I’ll donate but I can’t organise. I like it. Now, with your role Jonathan . . . 

Jonathan Black
It’s almost . . . would you ask a man to do that?

Claer Barrett
Well, yes, we should ask a man to do that. With your role, you’re helping students to, you know, get their first job, you know, find out what their internal career compass is telling them to do. And for lots of people entering on that graduate traineeship or even an intern programme, the FT runs lots of intern programmes if anyone in the audience is interested. Crucially, they’re all paid, which is a really great thing. But if you have come into an organisation as a trainee, and then you stay and build your career there, that can act against you in the same kind of ways that Isabel is talking about.

Jonathan Black
Yeah, this is the challenge. You come in at any level and you’re perceived as that level, even though you are better skilled, better qualified, and you might have taken a step down to get into an organisation you like or that you want to work for, but then the non-progressive bosses don’t see you like that. They see you as always that person down here.

Claer Barrett
Internitis.

Jonathan Black
Oh all right. Internitis. Yes.

Claer Barrett
There you go, I’ve given you an idea for an article. This is the great thing about the FT Weekend Festival.

So we’re gonna move on now to our fourth question, which is all about whether you should move company to boost pay. Now, this can be one of the easiest ways to get a pay rise. But our question says — this was a man, by the way — “Can I get paid more than the going rate if I move to another company but do the same job?” Now, a similar question might be, could I extract more money from my company if I go through the job interview process and offered something else, which is something that people often do. But this particular person, he wants more than the going rate doing the same job at another company. What would you say about that? Let’s start with you.

Jonathan Black
I mean, by the time you’re going down the route of being offered a job at another company, you’re kind of on the way out mentally anyway. And so it’s kind of too late for the employer at that stage, isn’t it, to pull you back in? I mean, there is that argument. You can walk in, the best way to get a pay rise, walk in with a job offer from somewhere else. But by then, I think it’s your psychology, you’ve left and that’s too late. Can you say, will they get paid more over there? I mean, that’s back to benchmarking, if I understand the question.

Claer Barrett
And in terms of people who think that they could maybe have an easier life at another company and get paid more because of the hot jobs market at the moment, somebody’s seriously thinking about leaving a company, like our previous question, she really likes the job, she wants to be paid more. What kind of things would you be saying to them, Isabel, if they were in the FT office having a slice of cake and tea in the canteen, as I am very privileged to do on occasion?

Isabel Berwick
So I think it’s very hard to get an idea of company culture externally, but you can sometimes get a whiff of it. You can see if there have been any big court cases. You can have a look on LinkedIn, you can have a look on Glassdoor. You can see if a friend of a friend works there because it’s actually not all about money. The culture of a company is vital and it doesn’t matter, you know, if you’re paid 20 grand more in your new job, but you are so miserable, you can’t, you know . . .

Claer Barrett
You’re spending it all on therapy. (Laughter)

Isabel Berwick
On therapy. It’s the, again, so I think, you know, corporate culture is often very overlooked in these discussions about pay. And I would really urge people to think about it very deeply.

Claer Barrett
Yeah. OK. Well, I’ve been asking people on Instagram, I’m @ClaerB on Instagram, Isabel’s @IsabelBerwick. You’re not on Instagram, but you are on LinkedIn, Jonathan Black, if you want to follow us. We did it on LinkedIn too, but we asked people to vote on Instagram yesterday on a question. We did a little poll. What matters to you most in your career — having a higher degree of purpose and job satisfaction or having a high level of salary?

Now, I’m gonna tell you in a minute how people on Instagram voted, but would you like to do a little show of hands for us audience? I know you can’t see it on the podcast, but I’ll describe it. So put your hand up if having a high degree of purpose and job satisfaction is more important to you than cold, hard cash. OK, that is probably about half of the room. OK. (Inaudible) OK. We may have led the audience there because the three of us have put our hands up. And then hands up now who says it’s all about the money, money, money. OK, right. So not very many hands going up for that.

Isabel Berwick
I would have expected more (inaudible) . . . 

Claer Barrett
I would have expected more because you know what? With our Instagram poll, we had about 800 people vote yesterday. Thank you if you’re here and you did that. And 51 per cent of people on Instagram said it’s all about the money, money, money. But I have some very interesting extra messages from people who follow us saying, actually, there’s a third factor at play here. And that third factor is flexibility, which speaks well to the theme of your Working It podcast this week. You know, flexibility is becoming one of the big benefits when you’re looking at changing employment that they offer.

Isabel Berwick
Yeah. I mean, a hybrid work schedule is now worth about an 8 per cent pay rise, I think, in the latest stats. You know, that’s if you’re not paying to commute into the office every day, you’re saving money. And a general air of flexibility around the corporate culture is extremely attractive to people. And it is worth more than money, I think. And going forward, I think that’s gonna become an even stronger factor. And I have heard of companies where they’re going, sliding into people’s LinkedIn DMs and saying, “I see you worked for X financial services. We’ve got a much more flexible situation over here.”

Claer Barrett
Because companies get known for being, you know . . .

Isabel Berwick
They’re known for being inflexible.

Claer Barrett
Yeah, OK. Well, really interesting. I mean, Jonathan, again, kind of people who you’re dealing with every day, students, you know, obviously who’ve got lots of worries about, you know, paying back their loans. They want to get the best possible graduate job that they can when they finish university. Now when I was graduating, obviously I wanted to be a journalist, but I didn’t ever think I’d get to be a journalist. And it’s just such a fantastic thing to have done. But I certainly didn’t go into it for the money. But I do remember looking at the graduate scheme for Accenture as it was at the time, and I think the pay for that was like something like £30,000, which, you know, in the 2000s was a lot of cash. I mean, how important is it, pay and purpose, to . . . your Gen Zs sort of coming through?

Jonathan Black
Good question. So we survey the students every year asking them to put this, sort of 10 functions about a job into a priority order. At the height of the pandemic, so about this time 2020 or May, well, intellectual challenge was number one, work-life balance, but then number three was meaning and purpose, a job with purpose and meaningful. Now, we did it again this year and that has dropped away and pay has become number three.

Claer Barrett
Wow. So as rents rise no doubt.

Jonathan Black
Yeah, or we’re all sort of back to normal. We had a panel discussion with employers and we had lovely unguarded student comments who say, “Yeah, I really wanted a job with purpose. But then I got an offer from (insert) investment bank and I took that.” They said, yeah, so you’ve got principle, but when the cheque arrives, you’ll go with that. You then get the view of “I’ll do this for a few years”. That’s pretty rational, pay off the buyer flat, whatever and then I’ll change. And that opens up a whole other set of discussions about it, life isn’t really like that.

Claer Barrett
No. Well, lifestyle creep, I would say, which is something we’ve made a Money podcast about before. Well, OK, let’s move on to the next question. I want to get your questions soon from the audience. Get as many of those in as possible. So we’ll be thinking about those. What happens if the boss says no? Now this is another really big barrier to people asking for a raise. This person says, I’ve been turned down for a pay rise recently. How long do I have to leave it before I ask for one again? Who wants to come in first?

Jonathan Black
Well, I think this is the wrong question. The question is, what do I have to do to be eligible for the raise? So you go back to the boss and say, OK, I understand that because after all, no means not now. That’s what no means. It doesn’t necessarily mean no, never. So I would be turning to them and asking for their advice, their support. What extra skills do I need? I’m obviously eager to get a pay rise or to progress to the next level. What skills do I need? What training can you offer? What projects could I take on? Can I have your support? Can I have a secondment? So it’s gonna be a two-step process.

Claer Barrett
So if you get the no, it can be, you know, they don’t want to upset you, they don’t want you to leave, but you can be prepared to ask for other stuff.

Jonathan Black
I mean, an ideal boss would actually say, “No, I can’t do the money because you’re at the top of the grade” or whatever it is. But I could do this or you could quickly turn it into that. So what could I have in this? It’s like when you’re negotiating pay anyway. OK, you can’t pay more than X, but could I have five days of funded training? Or could I have, would you pay for my, this?

Claer Barrett
Yeah. Or could I work from home on (inaudible)? What would you add to that, Isabel? People who’ve been told no . . . 

Isabel Berwick
I’d say don’t internalise the no because that’s a really common thing. You know, you feel rejected. You know, it goes right to the heart of what you feel you’re worth as a person. And that’s a hard thing to manage and it might knock you back. So don’t internalise it, bounce back, regroup, do whatever it takes. But I think the no itself is often the biggest thing. And actually if you keep asking, if you’re an irritant, I mean, we all know the people who call you the most or email you the most, you notice them, don’t you? So if you’re willing to be an irritant, that can be an effective tactic too.

Jonathan Black
Can be.

Claer Barrett
It could be, but it could also (laughter) . . . backfire. It could also get the label of being a pay pest, which . . . 

Jonathan Black
Get creative and try other routes. If that road is closed, go around another road or another thing.

Claer Barrett
Yes. OK. Right. We’re gonna come to your questions in a minute. But before we do that, I want to ask you about the public sector, because we’ve had about four or five different questions, all quite similar from people who work in the public sector, where, of course, the advantage other than the final salary pension that you might have, as we were talking about one session ago, is the fact that you have these pay grades, lots of transparency, but the disadvantage is that you have these pay grades. So unlike in the private sector where you could maybe, you know, make an exception, the questions that people are saying are: What advice would you give to public sector workers where pay bands are strict and inflexible? And any tips on negotiating a raise within these pay scales? How can I avoid being put at the bottom of a pay band with each promotion? That’s a very specific thing. But in general, Jonathan, talk to us about this issue of being on a pay scale because it is really a double-edged sword.

Jonathan Black
It is. I mean, it does give great transparency. Everybody knows what everyone’s paid and it sort of takes away all those issues. But this comes back to a general theme, which is it’s not totally about you, it’s about what you can do for the employer and what value you’re bringing them. So you might say, what if I took on running this bit for another department? What if I, you know, added more skills and took on more responsibility for you or saved you money or the employer money? I think it’s finding what do they want that would then help them reward you to give them the justification.

Claer Barrett
Hmm. And Isabel, I mean, having pay bands, you know, it’s often a case where a public sector employer might expect you to spend several years in one band before progressing to the next one. You can’t jump from, say, a six to an eight. You’ve got to go through the stages and it can be quite hard to negotiate promotions and pay rises if others are on different kind of levels in the strata of the company, if you like. I mean, it’s very like that at the BBC.

Isabel Berwick
Yeah. I mean, sometimes you, I mean I’ve heard cases where relatively young people have moved up several pay bands quite quickly, particularly in the civil service if you enter as a grad trainee. But I think sometimes, you know, if you’re in a pay band situation, you’re at the top of the pay band, you’re not gonna get anything except incremental rises. I think that’s one. There really is a ceiling there and you may have to move, though there isn’t room for manoeuvre there, Jonathan, is there?

Jonathan Black
There isn’t much. And you did just say it. It’s the job that’s graded, not the person.

Claer Barrett
That’s a very good point.

Jonathan Black
So, you know, yes, you may have these extra qualifications, but this is the job we want done. It’s Grade 5, you know, if you want more, I’m afraid, and we’ll help you, you have to find another role.

Claer Barrett
And that may be moving into the private sector.

Jonathan Black
Well, yeah.

Claer Barrett
Of course. I mean, I know some very dear friends who, because of the cost of living pressures and exactly what we’ve been talking about, this inflexibility of pay bands, that has been the thing that’s prompted them to say, you know what, I’m gonna cash in my chips and I’m gonna go to the private sector because I’ve got a mortgage to pay. And it’s a very unfortunate fact of life.

Jonathan Black
Or you can see it as quite positive that there is this flow between private and public sector these days or between academia and industry or between private and state schools. There is, it’s a much more fluid boundary.

Claer Barrett
OK. Well, some great answers from the panel to the questions that people have sent in. But now it’s your chance in the FT Money tent to put your questions to our pay rise experts. We’ve got some people on hand with some microphones. Do we have anybody who’s brave enough to ask our first question?

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Fortunately, not just one person was brave enough but two. First up, how do you deal with your boss telling you you’re not experienced enough for a rise? And the second question raised a very practical point. How do you start a conversation about pay? What’s the icebreaker? Well, Isabel thought about that one. We asked Jonathan for his tips on how to overcome the barrier of lack of experience.

Jonathan Black
OK, let’s be practical. Can you transfer any of your experiences outside the workplace? So you’ve done charity work, you’ve done stuff at school, you’ve done stuff with your family, with local charity, volunteering or something. So anything that you can bring across and say, yeah, I haven’t managed this, but I managed to put on a . . . I organised a half marathon or something that you could translate from one to the other. That’s particularly applies, I’ve seen that when we’ve recruited women generally returning to the workplace after say, 15 years of bringing up four children and doing up three houses.

Claer Barrett
Because there’s no skills involved with any of that.

Jonathan Black
None at all.

Jonathan Black
Yeah. So you have to, I mean, you’re gonna need an employer that’s going to take a leap of faith. Employers are generally terribly risk-averse and they want to see, have you done this exact job at this level at a well-known name, then I’ll take you. No, not many people fit into that. You want others, well, employers will say, we’re gonna take a punt on this and that’ll be about right.

Claer Barrett
I found the biggest thing with experience is experiencing of managing people and managing budgets. They seem to be the two crucial things, or certainly to me in my career. I was quite lucky because I was managing people from quite an early age and I really liked it and enjoyed it. So I’ve always wanted to manage people. But I mean, Isabel, lots of people may have trouble making that breakthrough, you know, being a boss to others and convincing people that they could be, particularly if they are quite young like our questioner. But what advice would you give to them?

Isabel Berwick
So on the lack of experience question, I’d probably say if you’re in a big organisation or in a fast-growing one, there might be an opportunity to be on a project or to get or perhaps you join an employee network, you know, you get yourself noticed. I mean, people notice the people who are in front of them. That’s the sad truth. You know, you can make that an advantage. I would call it horizontal networking. So you know, get to know people in different departments.

Claer Barrett
Who impress you and you think I want to be like them.

Isabel Berwick
Exactly. You know, word of mouth is very potent internally in companies.

Claer Barrett
OK. All right. And then to come back to your question, which is, how can you break the ice? How can you ask for a pay rise? I mean, I would say my own personal don’t would be don’t send an email saying please, can we have a talk about a pay rise? Because then the boss can be prepared with all of the reasons for no before you do it. If you say please, could we have a talk? If I got an email like that, I would think, shit, they’ve been offered a job by someone else. But Jonathan, what are your suggestions for the icebreaker? And then we’ll hear Isabel’s.

Jonathan Black
I’d be going in talking about the extra things you could be doing, or the extra or you’ve already taken on over the last three to six months, the extra responsibilities . . . 

Claer Barrett
The incrementals.

Jonathan Black
. . . you’ve taken on. But it’s again, desperately avoiding being needy or I deserve or any of that because it is not attractive to the other side.

Claer Barrett
And Isabel?

Isabel Berwick
Yes, present yourself attractively, intellectually but I think actually, even before you get in there, make sure you get the timing right. Do you know the person you’re asking for the pay rise? Are they your direct manager? You would not believe number of people who sort of trying to catch people as they’re going out for a sandwich or, you know, on the way to the loo and it’s just like, no, don’t. So exactly. Make the appointment and go in there with like a one pager, with data, with facts. You know, you can even make bullet points because what you want to do is present that person your case, and that person’s got to present your case to the next person. So you make it as easy as possible for them.

Claer Barrett
OK, folks. We’ve got seven minutes left. Do we have some more questions, please? I think there was another hand up over there. Oh, there’s one over here. Excellent. OK, let’s pass the microphone down and . . . oh, we’ve got one on the front row as well. Fantastic. So, OK, well, again, we’ll take both of the questions so that the panel have a little bit of time to think. Go ahead.

Audience member 1
So slightly different to pay rise — bonus.

Claer Barrett
Bonus.

Audience member 1
Bonus in a world where it’s not commission-based. So it comes from a pot.

Claer Barrett
It’s discretionary.

Audience member 1
It’s discretionary. So for some people it might feel like it’s plucked out of thin air. You might go in with a list, as you say, to say, this is what I’ve done. But the bonus pot as a company is decreasing given what’s going on in the market.

Claer Barrett
Yeah. Less M&A. Yeah.

Audience member 1
Any tips for fighting for your own share?

Claer Barrett
OK. Well I mean I would imagine the bonus question if you work in finance and you’re lucky enough to have the chance of getting an annual bonus every year, I mean, I don’t work in banking, but one of our columnists, James Max, who used to work in investment banking, I can remember him saying to me, “You start negotiating for next year’s bonus basically on the day that the bonus for that year is paid.” It’s a very, very big process within banks, within organisations. Jonathan, what tips would you give particularly in what looks like to be a leaner year financially for bonuses?

Jonathan Black
It’s not something I’m particularly familiar with, actually, recently. I’d understand what the measures are for how they’re going to award that and who’s involved.

Claer Barrett
So normally a percentage is of weightings of bonus, even if they’re discretionary are based on like, you know, your performance, your department’s performance. And even if you’re not scoring on the revenues hit with deals kind of bit, then, like, you know your skills as a person, what you’re bringing to the team, what else you are doing . . .

Jonathan Black
The issue with those schemes is you can game the schemes. So as long as you understand the rules, it’s like rankings of business skills, you know, we know what the rules are and thanks to the FT so if you wanted to raise or go up and down in the rankings, you can do that. So I think the same here. Do I understand the rules? And if it’s worth a lot of money, it’s probably worth, you know, angling what you do to play those rules. You might not agree with the rules, but it’s like tennis. Those are the rules.

Claer Barrett
OK. Isabel, anything to add on bonuses or should we . . .?

Isabel Berwick
No. I don’t know much about bonuses, but I do know about bias. And I would be, you know, I would make sure that there’s not an element of manager, you know, does the manager like somebody more? That’s a huge issue with bonuses. And I think that is, in the coming years, I think that’s gonna be addressed much more directly because women and people from minority backgrounds and disadvantaged backgrounds, people who are not like the boss traditionally lost out in the bonus pool where it’s discretionary, I think that is gonna be really challenged. So if you’re in a position to challenge it internally, do.

Claer Barrett
And you know, lucky to be in a job where you have got a bonus.

And we had another hand at the front from the gentleman in the white shirt, if we could have a microphone up here. Any other questions? OK. All right. We’ve got two at the back. Right. OK. We’re gonna get through these. Tell us your question, please.

Audience member 2
Yeah. You talked a lot about I think what’s lower down on the ladder. How about if you’re at the near the top of the ladder? Do you have any specific advice for somebody who’s lucky enough to be there?

Claer Barrett
OK. So somebody who’s at the top of their career looking for a big rise, what would your advice be to them? We’ll just quickly take the question. There’s one from the gentleman also in a white shirt. There we go. And there’s somebody behind you. Yeah.

Audience member 3
Pay rises, would there be an effect to some people who are working in the office when some people are more working from home? Could you see that being an impact that could be a bias towards?

Claer Barrett
Oh, OK. Right, that’s a good question. And our final question from the back, just to give you a little bit of time to think about your responses.

Audience member 4
From a pay rise point of view, is there value in moving jobs more frequently? Or would employers rather see that you’ve been at a job for longer and therefore have dedicated more of your time to a company and you’re more likely to get a pay rise? I don’t know from a CV point of view which looks more attractive.

Claer Barrett
OK. Let’s start with that one. Will you be discriminated against for being what is known in HR terms as a job hopper? Jonathan.

Jonathan Black
Less so than it used to be, I would say. I mean, I think less than a year is problematic, but as long as you can explain everything and why you move from one role to another, it’s fine. We don’t expect people to have done seven years in one job. When we, oh gosh, 10, 12 years ago I surveyed about 50,000 Oxford alumni and found that they’d had three different employers in the first 10 years. And that was 15 years ago. So now I suspect it’s four or five. So I suspect people are flipping on average every couple of years. They do slow down by the way. It was three in the first ten years, four in the whole 20 years.

Claer Barrett
OK. Job hopping. Isabel?

Isabel Berwick
Yeah, job hopping, I think, as the workforce changes, as Gen Z come into the workforce, they do not hang around if they’re unhappy, they will just walk. I think that’s a good thing. But I think it will fundamentally change how we view CVs and our careers.

Claer Barrett
OK. Now the second question that we had about will there be a pay discrepancy between people who are in the office more, people who are working remotely or at home more. What do you think about this now? Isabel, this is bread and butter to you on the Working It. It’s one of the most hotly contested issues.

Isabel Berwick
It is. And sadly, proximity bias is real. It is hard-wired into us. We trust the person who’s in front of us. It’s about the trust that goes back to when we were living in small communities, hunting-gathering communities. So I’m afraid, unless you work for a very progressive organisation with very benchmarked career progression, I would suggest if you’re after a bonus or a pay rise, showing up sometimes, and that’s a hard thing to say because I know a lot of people are not into the office, but unless you’ve got a boss who’s aware of proximity bias and has overcome it, I think it’s very prevalent.

Claer Barrett
And it’s not just the boss, it’s face time with others, building up relationships with colleagues that are gonna serve you well when you’ve left that company and work somewhere else. This is also something that’s of value.

Jonathan Black
Just getting the projects and being seen to take on things and being around to spot the corridor chat of, Oh, I could do that.

Claer Barrett
Yes. You know, hearing what’s going on. Yeah, I’m the gossip queen at the FT. Well, Isabel is really. But, you know, when we get in the canteen and get on to something, you don’t want to be there. So we’ve got one final question. (Laughter)

Isabel Berwick
No, we didn’t do the bonus at the top.

Claer Barrett
Oh right. OK, we’ll come to bonus at the top. There’s another one at the back who’s been waving madly. Go ahead.

Audience member 5
When I heard about the job hopping, I was thinking, what do you do if you’ve been incredibly loyal? I’ve been at a place for 17 years and I feel everybody just takes me for granted.

Claer Barrett
OK, well, you’ve done 17 years, I’ve done 15 years at the FT. Disgustingly loyal. You’ve been . . .

Jonathan Black
Fifteen, yeah.

Isabel Berwick
I’ve been at the FT for 22 years.

Claer Barrett
OK. So we’re perhaps a biased panel to talk about loyalty. But I think if you’re in a workplace where you’re continually being challenged and, you know, and doing different things and you’re not feeling that you’re getting rusty or stagnant in any way . . .

Jonathan Black
Well, if you have had different roles and you’ll have been promoted internally at some point, and that’s always a great sign. Remember employers being risk-averse? If we see that somebody else promoted you, I feel better now that this sounds like you’re . . . 

Claer Barrett
You’ve earned your stripes at that company

Jonathan Black
You can spin it that way, too.

Claer Barrett
OK. And then finally, oh, man in the front row. So if you’re somebody who’s a big cheese looking to become an even grander fromage, your final (inaudible) . . .

Jonathan Black
This is about, probably about promoting yourself on a broader scale. And you might want to think, I can go for the bonus here, but why don’t I add on other jobs around it? Why don’t I . . . ?

Claer Barrett
The portfolio.

Jonathan Black
Yes. The portfolio career. OK, I’ve got a core, but I can add on these things, such as being at the FT.

Claer Barrett
Yes. You know, doing a guest column or, I would say, you know, public speaking, that’s something that a lot of Germans do. But also speaking at the FT Live organised festival. You know, if you’re the kind of person in your organisation who would speak at a business to business conference, something that will really boost your profile within your industry and externally, presumably that’s something that firms really value. Isabel, any thoughts for our top fromage?

Isabel Berwick
Yes. You’re at the top already, you can afford a specialist and very high-end compensation coach and they will help you. And you might also, if you’re thinking if you’re really at the top, you might also be thinking about what is it beyond pay that I’m looking for? You know, the purpose part. You know, they get them to send you on one of these courses I’m gonna talk about in an hour about modern elders, you know, about reinventing yourself for the last third of your life . . . 

Claer Barrett
Giving back.

Isabel Berwick
Get them to pay for some good stuff.

Claer Barrett
OK. All right. Well, look. I’m going to have to bring it to a close, folks. It’s been wonderful hearing all of your questions. We wish you every success with applying for your next pay rise. Do keep in touch with us and let us know how you got on. You can listen to this as a Money Clinic podcast episode. It’s also going out on Working It, which is Isabel’s podcast, and Dear Jonathan, Jonathan’s column. It’s online, on his LinkedIn, and in the paper every other Monday. But thank you very much to everyone for coming. And to our lovely panel. (Applause)

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Many thanks to Isabel Berwick and Jonathan Black. We do hope you found the discussion useful. If you did, please leave us a review and let us know how you got on with asking for a pay rise. It’s a tough nut to crack. We’re always open to your ideas on Money Clinic. And if you’d like to be a featured guest on the podcast, you can get in touch with us. Our email address is money@ft.com. And of course, you can find me on Instagram. I’m @ClaerB. Find out more about FLIC, the FT’s financial literacy charity at www.ftflic.com. And this week’s episode of Money Clinic with me, Claer Barrett, was produced by the phenomenal Phillippa Goodrich. Our executive producer is Manuela Saragosa, and sound design was by Breen Turner with original music from Metaphor Music. And Cheryl Brumley is the FT’s global head of audio. See you back here next week. Goodbye.