Transcript: Culture chat — The uncancelling of John Galliano

This is an audio transcript of the Life and Art from FT Weekend podcast episode: ‘Culture chat — The uncancelling of John Galliano’

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Lilah Raptopoulos
Welcome to Life and Art from FT Weekend. I’m Lilah Raptopoulos, and this is our Friday chat show. Today we are talking about High & Low, a new documentary about the fashion designer John Galliano, directed by Kevin Macdonald. John Galliano has been a hugely influential figure in the fashion industry. He was most famously creative director of the House of Dior from 1996 all the way until 2011, and he was considered a sort of enfant terrible. He was known for huge, whimsical collections and sort of changing fashion. That said, in 2011, Galliano was fired from the year after videos emerged of him slurring his words and making antisemitic and racist rants. But what was interesting was his cancellation did not last long. Only a couple of years later, in 2014, he became creative director of Margiela, and he’s still there today.

[‘HIGH & LOW’ TRAILER PLAYING]

Lilah Raptopoulos
So in this episode, we will talk about Galliano’s career and our thoughts on the film, and also what happens to famous people after they do bad things. I’m Lilah and I’m creatively exciting and financially unstable. Joining me from London is the FT’s junior fashion editor, Annachiara Biondi. She is fabulous and about to discover her wanton past. Hi, Annachiara, welcome.

Annachiara Biondi
Hi, thank you.

Lilah Raptopoulos
And also in London, we have the assistant editor of our luxury lifestyle magazine HTSI. And we’re not sure why he needs a security guard walking down the runway with him.

Louis Wise
You’ll find out.

Lilah Raptopoulos
It’s the wonderful Louis Wise. Hi Louis, welcome.

Louis Wise
Thank you. Nice to see you.

Lilah Raptopoulos
It’s nice to see you both, too. I’m really excited to have you both on the show. OK. So why don’t we start with just, you know, big picture: what did you both think of the film? Louis, what did you think? Did you enjoy watching it?

Louis Wise
I think “enjoy” is perhaps the wrong word. I found it very entertaining and intriguing. But ultimately, enjoyment kind of eludes you because of the way the film goes. There’s a kind of redemptive arc, but it ends, really, in a kind of slightly muted fashion. His career burned very brightly at first. You get this real fireworks of the Galliano show, then it’s kind of extinguished because of the scandal and the way I see it, he then comes back as a kind of fizzling match. (Laughter) You tell me if that’s final note.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Is that a muted version of himself? You’re right. And at the end you think it’s not sort of like, wow, what an incredible man who went through this sort of, like, dark time and came back in this nice way. You’re sort of like, oh.

Louis Wise
Yeah, exactly. And maybe that’s more like real life, but yeah.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, yeah. Annachiara, what did you think?

Annachiara Biondi
Yeah, I think to me it was definitely really interesting. And I would recommend people to watch it, people who are into fashion, but also people who are not into fashion and maybe don’t know much about Galliano. They know a couple of things. I think it gives you a really good idea of what happened and who this person is. It’s a good watch, I think.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, yeah. Me too, I felt, I mean — I knew less probably about him going in then than you both did — but I felt that it introduced me to this person I knew vaguely and made me think a lot about how the same brain can do, like, incredible good and also terribly bad. And how to reconcile that.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

I’m curious how you both felt like the movie depicted Galliano’s influence.

Annachiara Biondi
So I think the film does partially a good job of describing that because there’s a lot of archive footage. And I think the images alone gave you an idea of how much his creations and his designs were so different from what everybody else was doing. So theatrical and like the construction of the pieces, the construction of the shows, all the drama that he brought on the catwalk, and obviously he then brought this kind of rebellious, hyper-dramatic attitude to Dior and to Givenchy before Dior and revolutionised how these very classical bit stayed fashion houses were working, brought a lot of new energy to them.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, I . . . you know, my favourite parts of the film, I think were when he was talking about the craft, like there was this moment where he had a piece of fabric and he pulled on the grain, and it just in one way, and it just had no give. And he, like, turned it sideways. So it was on the diagonal or, you know, on the, what do you call it on the cross and then pulled it again and it just had this like beautiful movement. And he said like, see what I did there? I liked seeing that creative process. I’m curious, Louis, what you thought. And also like, if you can just set the scene a little bit for people, like what was different about his work?

Louis Wise
Well, as Annachiara said, it’s so theatrical but also really cross-pollinated I think, between various cultures. I think in a way, which now is viewed as what could be termed as cultural appropriation, basically. But that was a kind of gleeful mishmash of historical references. His first collection, when he was still a student, kind of riffed and French revolutionary styles. And after that he was just on a kind of, like, historical rollercoaster. And so that was kind of quite thrilling and fun to watch and very different. It showed a depth, at least of kind of visual knowledge, which is incredibly impressive. And, you know, much as people as he really is from archetypal designer, where someone on the street may be like, how does that apply to what I’m wearing? But there was an undeniable slow trickle effect. And also, he made you dream in a fashion absolutely about what you wear every day. It is also about how you imagine yourself, how you want to be. And he more than fulfilled that brief. And the film yes, as Annachiara says, really does explain that. And he himself became his own most wild and ludicrous creation. You could say I’m leading, you know, as we are, towards that downfall.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Lilah Raptopoulos
Why don’t we get into the controversy around him? John Galliano was always sort of provocative and different, as you both said. But he also, as he got more successful, he relied more on alcohol and prescription drugs. He got quite mean. And then sort of at his lowest, three instances emerged of him slurring his words at a Parisian bar and howling verbal abuse at strangers and calling them antisemitic and anti-Asian names and calling them ugly and saying things like “I love Hitler”. And he was quickly fired, and he went to court and he went to rehab. And I’m curious, like that would, a lot of the film was centred around that. And I’m curious what the film kind of made you feel about him. Like, do you think they handled that time well?

Annachiara Biondi
So I think I like that it was quite straightforward. So the film’s open with, you can listen to what he says to the recording. So it’s quite straightforward. He goes right into it. And then it kind of depicts the arc of Galliano in the industry. So like his background, even is family background and how, you know, his relationship with his father, who was sometimes violent with them, and then his success in the fashion industry and overworking and, you know, the loss of a personal friend and collaborator and then the addiction and burnout. All of that brings to this result, which is him losing control. Basically, this is how it’s presented in the film, losing control and saying things that he says he didn’t mean. So it’s a very clear, to me was presented very clearly like, this is what happened. And this is why what I was left with was a bit of a question of: is it all there is? So is it just someone who had a lot of struggles and then had obviously the problem of addictions? And then there’s an industry who doesn’t care about mental health. And we know that that’s a problem in the industry with other designers as well. But is this all there is then? So is it just someone who fell victim of this and then had an outburst that was extremely similar for three times? I think the arc is clear, but then it lacks some answers.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, yeah.

Louis Wise
It’s not necessarily satisfying, I would say. I don’t know if it’s . . . but then again, satisfaction is maybe . . . I think Kevin McDonald, the director, is trying to not give us cheap satisfaction. I think the whole point of the film, in a way, is leading up to the outburst and the fallout of it. I think he, the director does a good job of addressing it and quite even-handedly. But there’s no doubt that the case slowly builds up. I guess a case for explaining how he could get to such an awful point. The thing that really interests me about the whole film is, you know, what you forgive and why. It’s funny. I mean, these slurs we’re talking about and being euphemistic about. When I was thinking about what he says before coming here, I was thinking, they’re awful, they’re unforgivable. And then I thought, whether they have to be forgivable. I think for my personal politics, I’ve always thought, you have to forgive. But it’s as though he kind of crossed the Rubicon, and then you kind of think, why do I forgive someone?

I have to say, watching this film was interesting for me because I’d kind of moved on from it. Unlike many other people, felt uneasy about the scandal, but kind of moved on. And this reminds you to think, well, why? What bothered you? I didn’t bother you, you know. I wasn’t up in arms when he was appointed. It was much laters, you know, a full ten years ago, only three years after it. I think it points to your own ambivalence or complicity in the whole thing.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, yeah, I think what it did pretty well is, it left me asking, like, a lot of questions, and it was like, very, you know, cancel culture is very black and white. And I think we’re a couple of years past this sort of like the biggest years of hard and fast cancellations. And now we’re in sort of like a more nuanced place. And I feel like after this movie I felt like, OK, well a lot of things are true at the same time, you know, like, none of us are just good or just bad. I think this guy was both honestly sorry and also sort of incapable of a certain level of introspection. You know, his remorse seemed real, but also unsatisfying. And, I don’t know, it was both. And the film sort of asked you to weigh all the sides. Yeah, I thought that was a useful exercise.

Louis Wise
Yeah, I think so, too.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Annachiara, what about you?

Annachiara Biondi
So I do think that the documentary takes quite a balanced view of Galliano, but I do think that something that I found a bit problematic was the fact that Galliano is presented as a genius, which he might have been in his field. But this fact that he’s a genius is kind of presented as a justification of: this person is a genius, he does such amazing, creative things that maybe we should forgive him so that he can continue create all of these beautiful, amazing things. Which I think is problematic because if you believe that you have to give people a second chance, then it should be given to everyone, and not just because somebody is a genius. Like you shouldn’t give them a pass just because they have a specific talent.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Mmm, mmm, mmm. You know, I did find the idea of genius interesting, too. And actually, I felt like the question that the movie left me with that was most uncomfortable is that conflict that this is the same brain. Like the same brain that’s presumably a genius in one way, just really has a lack of depth and complexity in other ways, and it can be very disappointing. But that’s the guy you have, like one comes with the other. And our heroes can’t be everything to us. And it really left me wondering, like, should we be considering him an icon or should we be considering anyone an icon?

Louis Wise
It reminds us that we’re in a system which still elevates and worships geniuses or gods, you know? In a secular age, we don’t really have as many gods, but we have celebrities, designers, sportsmen, and then we absolutely pump them up. And in this system, you can see he really is kind of like coddled, a particularly fragile soul to begin with, and pushed to the edge. And you get what you get. In the film, he seems to blame a lot of his burnout on doing lots of collections. Which is true, I think he does (inaudible) collections and that is a lot of pressure. It does also feel a bit lacking. It’s like, OK, so you made a lot of clothes, so then you shout antisemitic slurs. It’s like, I think we need a few more steps. But undeniably, he’s indicative of a system where we create . . . We create monsters, I think. He should take responsibility for what he’s done. But also, you see the un . . . all the ways people navigating around him and I guess profiting off him. And then it doesn’t end well. It doesn’t surprise me.

Annachiara Biondi
I thought, some of the things, I think that it what he did creatively and to the fashion industry, it’s still valid I think. But this documentary maybe helps adding some context and redimensionalize the figure of the designers and also his work. So you can still appreciate his work and what he did for the fashion industry from an aesthetic point of view, from what a runway show can be. But then also you can admit and know that it didn’t have a lot of depth, and maybe it was something that it was more aesthetically pleasing than intellectual, which doesn’t mean that it’s bad, especially in fashion, but it gives context to it, which is always important.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. You know, I think this story represents something broader, probably, you know, about forgiveness and about, when high-profile creative people whose work we like do terrible things, what exactly we want on the other side. I’m curious from both of you who know this industry so well, what does this say about cancel culture in the fashion industry?

Louis Wise
I think it says people move on, especially when they want the product and they want the creativity. Fashion is often about dream, and as long as you make someone dream, you’re happy to move on. It also can have a very intellectual side, but it’s not the side that’s indulged first and foremost. So as long as you keep producing the spectacle, people don’t mind. I mean, it’s a ginormous industry. So as long as you create stuff that sells, that’s the first thing. And we see that with other people trying to come back from cancellations still now. I mean, it’s very hard to put each case side by side. But Alexander Wang, the New York designer who was accused of sexual harassment, is now trying to come back with support from various high-profile friends. I don’t think fashion minds or fashion kind of can move on from cancellation of pretty quickly, especially when there’s profits to be made.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, yeah. Louis, Annachiara, thank you so much. We will be back in just a minute for More or Less.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Welcome back for More or Less, the part of the show where each guest says something they want more of or less of culturally. Annachiara, what do you have?

Annachiara Biondi
So on Sunday I went to see Tasneim Zyada, who’s a Palestinian-British spoken word artist, and I loved it. I am not very much into poetry or spoken word, but it was very emotional, so I’d like to see more of that.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. More spoken word. Amazing. Louis, what about you?

Louis Wise
I’m so glad Annachiara gave that answer because it sets mine in such dramatic relief. (Laughter) On Sunday I went to see Dune: Part Two and I was reminded I’d like to see more things with demented perfume adverts. (Laughter) More. Like I want it five hours long. I want more deserts. It’s actually quite Galliano, to be honest. It’s kind of like more bizarre. I mean, it’s absolutely thrilling and strange. And someone said, that was like a weird perfume advert. I was like, yeah, that’s a good thing, right? I would buy that scent.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Someone has come on and said fewer perfume adverts. And so I really appreciate the defence of the perfume advert.

Louis Wise
It’s an underestimated art form. (Laughter) It needs a retrospective now.

Lilah Raptopoulos
I would like more risks. I’m sure many of us saw the Oscars on Sunday, but Cord Jefferson went up. He won for best adapted screenplay for American Fiction. And he basically, in his speech said, like, I know the film industry is risk-averse, but $200mn for a movie is a risk. So why don’t we try to make 20 $10mn-movies with that money? Or like 50 $4mn-movies with that money? And I agree, I’ve been thinking about it since, like in every industry, including in journalism, I want to kind of see more risks. Even if something doesn’t work, it’s OK. When it does work, it’s amazing and changes things. I think we all get stuck and it doesn’t really serve audiences. So yeah, more risks. More risks.

Louis Wise
I mean, yeah, I totally agree. It was all interesting. All industry is under threat, isn’t it. Under threat, they all panic. Film, music, journalism.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. All industries under threat.

Louis Wise
So it’s like they just shrink.

Lilah Raptopoulos
It’s the first thing you cut back on.

Louis Wise
Exactly.

Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. Louis, Annachiara, thank you both so much. This was such a pleasure. Thanks for being on the show.

Annachiara Biondi
Thank you for having us.

Louis Wise
Thank you.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Lilah Raptopoulos
That’s the show. Thank you for listening to Life and Art from FT Weekend. Take a read through the show notes. We have links that expand on everything mentioned today, including Annachiara’s More or Less recommendation, as well as places that you can follow Louis and Annachiara on social media. Every link that goes to the FT gets you past the paywall. Also in the show notes is a discount to a subscription to the Financial Times and ways to stay in touch with me on email and on Instagram. I love hearing from you.

I’m Lilah Raptopoulos and here is my talented team. Katya Kumkova is our senior producer. Lulu Smyth is our producer. Our sound engineers are Breen Turner and Sam Giovinco with original music by Metaphor Music. Topher Forhecz is our executive producer and our global head of audio is Cheryl Brumley. Have a lovely week and we’ll find each other again on Monday.